It doesn't matter what the edit was about, I just said it was a good metaphor for this sub-forum (based on my experience- this past week and a few times back when it was called "brick and mortar")...

I don't come to CLP often, but I gather it's primarily comprised of dealers and other card room employees. Thats's fine, but discussions are relatively worthless unless they are somewhat balanced in perspectives. And I don't see how anyone who isn't a card room employee could last very long here given the heavy anti-player/pro-worker vibe.

Having said that, I think it's lazy and a disservice to all card room employees to throw all posts that have to do with tipping into one massive, jumbled thread. Tipping is a huge part of their compensation. And compensation is a huge part of all of our lives.

My thread was specific to high stakes cash games. I was trying to improve compensation for dealers there (which imo would have a pretty solid butterfly effect). The discussion started out rocky, but that's normal when there is a lot of friction to work through. Regardless, no blood was shed and the discussion was moving in a productive, civil direction- and actually on the brink of progress/change imo...

Then a bunch of the posts got deleted or moved to the "tipping containment thread" and all context and focus was lost and the discussion just died... It seems like you guys are a band of brothers over here in CLP, but I'd be pretty pissed if I was a dealer who paid my bills/put a roof over my kids' heads with tips and every tipping discussion that sprouted up on here went to that containment thread to die. I mean, is there not enough space on the 2p2 servers to discuss (in detail and with focus) something as important as tipping/compensation/livelihood? I don't get it.

Thanks for the post DGAF. Tipping is a very hot-button issue. Over the years Rapini and I have been modding (and more recently dinesh), we've come across dozens of tipping discussions, and they never end well - they may be civil at first, but they always end up devolving into troll-fests and personal attacks, and I mean always. So we nip them in the bud. Tipping posts are like oily rags next to a furnace - do you let them pile up and wait for them to catch fire, or do you address them right away? The tipping containment thread is a fire-proof box. I've even seen other forums stop tipping discussions and direct them to our containment thread, many of those mods know how they always end also.

Is that the post that got me banned?

No, critical posts are perfectly welcome ITT as long as they're respectful. As far as I can tell, you were told not to comment on moderation outside of this thread, but then you did anyway, so you got a day off for ignoring the mod's warning.

Pretty sure the sequence of it all was, everything was fine (I def wasn't banned), then I posted my unflattering opinion of LCP moderation in this thread, and moments later I was banned.

Regardless, it seems really weird to me that you can only talk about moderation in this thread. Or that you can only talk about tipping in the tipping thread. People generally discuss what is important to them in the moment, wherever they are. "Moderation" (of this sub-form) and "tipping" are hot, important topics to 2p2ers. Let 'em discuss imo. That is how issues get resolved/truths get outed.

It's because they are hot topics that they inevitably end up derailing the thread. We're not a low content forum so we generally don't allow derails. If you're suggesting letting these topics go until that happens in case it's a rare instance where it doesn't devolve into a mess, instead of auto-containing them (like what happened in your thread), I'm certainly open to discussing that.

That may have been how the events were sequenced, but trust me, you were not temp-banned because of anything you posted in this thread.

It was explicitly because you ignored our multiple requests to post moderation-related posts here in this thread.

If you want to complain about either the moderation rules, or the moderators, this is the place to do it. If you stay respectful, you'll get no grief from us. If it's constructive and if you (and hopefully others) can convince us, as a general rule we're definitely open to change.

Just to be clear, so far I don't think you've made a compelling case for either allowing tipping posts or moderation posts outside their containment threads. I understand why you might want them to stay in non-containment posts, but our long experience is that both of those types of posts consistently and ****tily derail the primary content posts in which they originate. Based on the post reports we get from users when these containment violations occur, no small number of posters here agree with the containment system for them.

Jesus, why was my reply to lego deleted?

You seem to have problems with not bringing up moderation issues in substantive threads. I opted not to give you the 48-hr tempban you deserved for your third offense [EDIT to add: and fourth offense, apparently], but you really need to stop posting in LCP if you can't abide by the guidelines.

It's totally fine for you to take issue with the way the forum is moderated and to discuss it in this thread. We encourage that.

However, as Lattimer and dinesh have said in prior posts, issues that have proven to be contentious over the years have containment threads so that they don't end up taking over other threads throughout the forum.

K man, I'm done posting in 'CLP' (you delete everything anyways). In my humble opinion though, 'CLP' it is a terrible groupthink of a sub-form- solely because of the moderation headed by you. I wasn't trying to break any rules, I'm just not used to being so censored/topic-controlled. Honestly.

Keep deleting anything you don't want heard. You should be fine. No one above you will ever tally all those complaints about you and think, MAYBE ALL THOSE POSTERS WEREN'T THE PROBLEM AFTER ALL...

Peace

You're trying waaaaaay too hard to play the role of an outsider, and it's coming off weird. Nobody knows what you're on about.

Everyone who has spent any time here appreciates the containment threads. It's not like we are itching to have a multi-page tipping debate somewhere besides the dedicated thread but the mean mods won't let us. How ****ing hard is it to respect the wishes of the community?

Part of the problem you have understanding why certain things are done the way they are now in LCP is that you yourself state you haven't been here in a long time. Before this week, you say you weren't here since it was B&M. That was 18 months ago, and a lot has changed since then irt moderation and policies, with significant input from the regular users of the forum. And of course, the opinions of the people who regularly read and contribute to the forum carry more weight than those of people who drop in once every couple of years, say "this place sucks" and then disappear. As it should, just like your opinion would carry more weight than mine in the High Stakes forum



Actually, there are many players who regularly take part in the forum. But your thread was titled "PSA for dealers" and asked why dealers don't work harder in high stakes NL games Who did you expect to come to come into that thread--a bunch of 1/2 nl players? Your thread and comments were directed at dealers and those who manage them, and that's who participated in your thread.

Yes, tipping is important. And there is a thread dedicated to it. The reason for the containment thread is that all of those points and discussions have been had over and over again dozens of times in this forum. So while you think you are bringing a unique look at the issue, you are not.

For example, you started out with a common fallacy about dealer compensation when you extrapolated the dollars a dealer makes in one down to an hourly rate, when you said that $20/down equals $40/hour. That's a mistake that has happened a hundred times, and has been responded to a hundred times. So the regulars in LCP have no desire to repeat that same old discussion again and again everytime someone who spends little time in LCP brings it up and thinks he's discovered something new.

Other forums do the same thing, they just call their threads different names. Sometimes it's called FAQ; or Beginner Questions; or there is a "read this first" sticky. Just as poker strat people try and contain things like "is it OK to fold KK preflop" from coming up over and over again, so do the users of LCP want to contain the tipping repetitive arguments.

Here's how tipping always goes:

Dealers make $20/down, that's $40/hour! That's $80k a year! That's way too much for low skilled people doing what a trained monkey could do!

No we don't! It's nowhere near that! There are factors X,Y,Z you haven't taken into consideration! And it's a lot harder and takes way more skill to be a good dealer than you think!

So how much do you make? Give me a number!

No, that's personal and none of your business, plus it varies greatly by individual and location, so it would be meaningless!

Well, tipping sucks anyway, and cuts into my winrate! The casino should pay dealers a higher hourly rate, and have no tipping!

Well, then the rake will go up!

Then someone joins in: they don't tip where I live, and dealers still suck because they all get paid the same!

And on and on ad infinitum. Until it devolves to personal insults, and players claiming to know how dealers think, etc, etc. if you don't believe me, look at the some of the absurd comments about dealers that posters posted in your thread in HS pokers. One stood out:that dealers expect to get tipped double in a 2/5 game than in a 1/2 game, and double in a 5/10 game than a 2/5 game, and on up because the games are bigger. That may be the dumbest comment I have ever heard about a dealers view on tipping. I know no dealer that believes that. So a post like that drives more heated responses, and the downward spiral continues.

So that's how all tipping discussions end up, including the one in your PSA thread. The regular users of LCP prefer to keep those discussions in one place so the same arguments don't spam up the forum.


They are discussed, and in detail. And by keeping them in threads dedicated to them, it is easy to find those discussions rather than having to randomly come upon a tipping or moderation discussion in a thread with a completely unrelated topic. And likewise, if someone is reading a thread about, say, "tips for first visit to a poker room" he doesn't want to encounter a dozen posts about whether or not LCP should allow users to post the names of dealers in the forum. And if other people wanted to discuss and give their input to that question, they would never find that discussion because they aren't interested in the "first trip to a poker room" thread. It's strange that you are arguing against giving dedicated threads to important topics. The users here feel that it gives more visibility and coherence to those topics, not less.

Really the only issue is just putting the right stuff in the right thread. I agree that conversations (threads) evolve and breaking them up can be detrimental to being productive, but it's not so hard really, especially if a moderator has already moved a branch of the thread into the thread where it can continue.

Not the first time. But then you were informed.

Rapini makes a mysognist "joke" that appeals to sexists who only think of women as breasts on legs, and the post sits there, offending people. I make a reference to how those kinds of jokes are, properly, going the way of jokes that compare blacks to [profanity filter dodge removed] and my post is deleted.

2+2 is really creating a woman friendly image here.

It was deleted for dodging the profanity filter, exactly like you did above. Next time spell out the word and let the filter do its job, just like it says in the guidelines:

(3) Don’t bypass the Profanity filter. 2+2 has a profanity filter built into its software. Please do not self-censor or otherwise attempt to dodge that filter; simply type expletives as you would normally and let the filter do its work. That means don’t type F—K it! Just type **** it! and the filter will do its job.

Many forums on here have this rule, FWIW, it's not just a LCP thing.

Do you even realize how ridiculous you are?

I'm guessing no. Great post though, I hope you earned some points with those you were trying to impress.

When you are used to speaking freely your whole life (including your entire existence on 2p2), it's a pretty big adjustment to suddenly not do that- especially on a public forum.

Please don't try to make the 'free speech' argument.

It doesn't apply. This site is still private property and "free speech" applies to laws about what you can say, and where, not forum rules about the same.

Are you pointing at yourself as the example that invalidates my use of "everyone" and "nobody"?

Because lol.

You speak the same way, using the same words and never self-censoring, in all situations of life? If it's appropriate in one context it's appropriate in all?

Different 2+2 forums, just as different situations in life, have different rules. It's OK that you didn't know at first, but then you were told.

Apparently!

Hopefully you realized it already after our PM exchange, but your post I'm quoting now is absurd beyond any standard of reasonableness.

#1: You purposefully broke a guideline, which you admitted. Ridiculous.
#2: You seemed to be upset when I deleted your post that violated the guidelines. Ridiculous.
#3: You called a joke that I made "misogynist." Ridiculous. But let's pretend that it were in any way misogynist. You should have made a post report and not responded. Feeding a troll is every but as bad as trolling. You should know that given your experience with internet message boards.

Someone else did report the original post to which I responded, but I did not see any reason to remove it. The first reason I didn't remove it is I didn't think it was sexist, misogynist, etc. I was able to see the humor and ridiculousness of it. The second reason I didn't remove it is it was posted in a hype thread. Hype threads are low-/no-content threads by definition because there's no poker going on to talk about. In previous hype threads, we've seen people requesting free trips to Vegas, impossibly low rake, etc., and even more ridiculous things. They're all in good fun and not meant to have any real purpose, which is in sharp contrast to the usual Poker Venue threads.

And apparently none of the other moderators saw fit to remove it either, so I am good with my decision.

As I said in the hype thread itself, the trend of people being offended about nothing is troubling. You're welcome to be offended by something I say or do and you're welcome to tell me you're offended, but I'm also welcome to tell you I don't care if you're offended (especially when there's nothing to be offended about).

Jesus man, after your PM exchange he posted in that thread that he realized you were joking and he just read it the wrong way.

I thought it was really ****ty of him to respond like that to me when he knew what he was doing was wrong in the first place. But I'm done with the issue now.