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Card exposing Card exposing

07-04-2024 , 05:09 PM
Hi
Today at the table (Cardroom live Poker…)

Flop, I‘m all in. 1 player Left. Villain exposes his cards face high so that at least the player on his left and the player on his right can see his cards…After about 15 secs of thinking and still shuffeling his two cards face high…he calls…
IMHO that’s a fold…(he never said ‚fold‘ btw)
After villain called my all-in, the Dealer reminded him to protect his cards and on my complaint the floor was called. Floor said that it is not a fold and that’s it by tda rules…
Whats your opinion on that matter? And do tda rules say anything on that matter?
Thanks
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07-04-2024 , 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssanchito7
Hi
Today at the table (Cardroom live Poker…)

Flop, I‘m all in. 1 player Left. Villain exposes his cards face high so that at least the player on his left and the player on his right can see his cards…After about 15 secs of thinking and still shuffeling his two cards face high…he calls…
IMHO that’s a fold…(he never said ‚fold‘ btw)
After villain called my all-in, the Dealer reminded him to protect his cards and on my complaint the floor was called. Floor said that it is not a fold and that’s it by tda rules…
Whats your opinion on that matter? And do tda rules say anything on that matter?
Thanks
never a fold. but should be a penalty
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07-04-2024 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssanchito7
IMHO that’s a fold…
Why do you believe it should be a fold?
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07-04-2024 , 05:48 PM
Because I think that cards have to be protected at all times and since several players saw his cards before he called it should be a fold (or at least a penalty…) but in those cardrooms they give you a warning and that’s about it…
Is it ok to show your cards to others while your in the hand…(?)
Well - I may be wrong, but that’s why I am asking…
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07-04-2024 , 06:32 PM
Agree with others. Not a fold, should be penalized.

If he wasn't closing the action, I'd say a more severe penalty is warranted, especially if some of the players who saw his hand still had action pending.
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07-04-2024 , 10:07 PM
It depends if this is a tournament or a cash game.

In a cash game HU it makes no difference in most rooms if a player exposes his cards even to his opponent. Even in rooms where players are not allowed to expose their cards in cash games HU as long as you didn't see his cards and as long as there was no commentary from the people on either side of him, it would probably just be a warning.

In a tournament though you cannot expose your cards. The penalty now is typically being held out of the next 3 hands though before covid it was usually a whole round.

At no point will a fold be called if the player didn't say "Fold". Unless the particular room has a rule that his hand is dead if he exposes his cards. But you would have had to see them and tell the Floor what they were. If you saw just one of them that would likely count.
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07-04-2024 , 10:24 PM
Never a fold, you sound like a sore loser and/or a angleshooter. Per TDA, exposing your hand with action pending can result in a penalty, but not a dead hand (TDA specifically mentions the hand is not dead). Cash games are typically less strict on rules and this wouldn't even be penalized.
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07-05-2024 , 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssanchito7
Hi
Today at the table (Cardroom live Poker…)

Flop, I‘m all in. 1 player Left. Villain exposes his cards face high so that at least the player on his left and the player on his right can see his cards…After about 15 secs of thinking and still shuffeling his two cards face high…he calls…
IMHO that’s a fold…(he never said ‚fold‘ btw)
After villain called my all-in, the Dealer reminded him to protect his cards and on my complaint the floor was called. Floor said that it is not a fold and that’s it by tda rules…
Whats your opinion on that matter? And do tda rules say anything on that matter?
Thanks
Not a fold but if player subsequently does fold they should be shown (without a player even asking imo) shown to all players.

I almost never play tournaments but iirc even under current TDA rules his hand is live. He should get a warning or penalty after the hand completes but that hand should not be killed.

Now there are some rooms where they kill an exposed hand in tournaments or cash. Those rooms are now few and it is considered a bad rule.
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07-05-2024 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrnaFTW
never a fold. but should be a penalty
What should the penalty be if this is a cash game?
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07-05-2024 , 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssanchito7
Because I think that cards have to be protected at all times and since several players saw his cards before he called it should be a fold (or at least a penalty…) but in those cardrooms they give you a warning and that’s about it…
Is it ok to show your cards to others while your in the hand…(?)
Well - I may be wrong, but that’s why I am asking…
In cash games it is common to show cards to other players not in the hand so they can sweat it. I don’t like it but it is very common. In many rooms if you are heads up you can play your hand face up if you want.

This is actually recommended by some if you make quads during a HH but you have a bad kicker and both must play. Allows others who might call and your kicker get counterfeit ed to fold.

It used to be a more common tournament rule but nit for many years.
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07-05-2024 , 01:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golddog
Agree with others. Not a fold, should be penalized.

If he wasn't closing the action, I'd say a more severe penalty is warranted, especially if some of the players who saw his hand still had action pending.
Well if anyone with cards saw them, very different situation. Either they are immediately tabled (if anyone who saw is still to act) or upon betting round completion.

But as said previously even if those who saw don’t have cards, the hand should be displayed (not tabled mind you) after comp,eating hand
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07-05-2024 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
This is actually recommended by some if you make quads during a HH but you have a bad kicker and both must play. Allows others who might call and your kicker get counterfeit ed to fold.
This is high hand collusion and gets it voided in the rooms I play in. Even saying stuff about your hand or what actions you want/may want people to take can get it voided.
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07-05-2024 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thamel18
This is high hand collusion and gets it voided in the rooms I play in. Even saying stuff about your hand or what actions you want/may want people to take can get it voided.
I can see that but I literally saw a dealer recommend it to a player a few months ago. I was traveling (we don’t have many HH promos here) so I don’t recall the specific room

Note, I never said this was good or bad only relayed what I saw. But I will say most places I have seen a play, cash games heads up exposing your hand is allowed. I have no prob with this as part of the poker.
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07-05-2024 , 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssanchito7
Hi
Today at the table (Cardroom live Poker…)

Flop, I‘m all in. 1 player Left. Villain exposes his cards face high so that at least the player on his left and the player on his right can see his cards…After about 15 secs of thinking and still shuffeling his two cards face high…he calls…
IMHO that’s a fold…(he never said ‚fold‘ btw)
After villain called my all-in, the Dealer reminded him to protect his cards and on my complaint the floor was called. Floor said that it is not a fold and that’s it by tda rules…
Whats your opinion on that matter? And do tda rules say anything on that matter?
Thanks
A lot of others have answered your question already (it’s not a fold). I think an important takeaway might be that you shouldn’t just go around demanding someone’s hand be declared dead. Declaring someone’s hand dead is a very rare punishment that is avoided as a penalty whenever it isn’t absolutely necessary to maintain game integrity.

Some examples would be if someone has 3 cards or 1 card on the deal and doesn’t speak up in time. If someone knowingly holds two of the same card (two ace of clubs for instance) or has a card that would make the deck foul (an ace of clubs on the board and one in their hand). Some other examples would be if they verbally declare “fold” and then change their mind, or if they discard their cards facing a bet and try to take it back.

Maybe something closer to your situation would be if they dropped their cards on the floor and then tried to pick them back up. That would get your hand declared dead in most casinos. Or if you hide your cards and then wake up on the next street asking why you were skipped. That would also get your hand killed.

In this case we are not talking about anything as extreme as the examples above. It probably deserves a warning, but is it really reasonable to ask for his hand to be killed? Nah. And you shouldn’t make that assumption just because you feel like he’s showboating or something.
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07-08-2024 , 12:33 PM
I've seen this situation more times than I can count (a player tanking on an all in bet and showing his neighbor his hand). If one of the neighbors says "you're probably good" and influences him to call it would be a OPTAH violation but they'll still just likely give them both a warning anyway.
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07-08-2024 , 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
...if they dropped their cards on the floor and then tried to pick them back up. That would get your hand declared dead in most casinos...
During one of the DDS that I played, the table had a hard (plastic?) surface surrounding the dealer tray, extending to the sides (seats 1 & 9) considerably more than a 'standard' casino table, and a noticeable height difference where it met the felt.

We had one dealer in particular that had difficulty pitching to seat 9 due to that surface...one or both cards would end up there rather than on the felt in front of the player.

One particular hand, the first card landed on the plastic, player grabbed it. When the second card was pitched it spun on the plastic and slid off the table between dealer and seat 9.

Dealer silently bent down and picked it up and placed it in front of seat 9. Couple of sideways glances by players, but no one said a word and play continued. Dealer was pushed shortly after.
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07-08-2024 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssanchito7
Because I think that cards have to be protected at all times and since several players saw his cards before he called it should be a fold (or at least a penalty…) but in those cardrooms they give you a warning and that’s about it…
Is it ok to show your cards to others while your in the hand…(?)
Well - I may be wrong, but that’s why I am asking…
Generally, the rule is one player to a hand. So if he exposes his cards and then gets help from another player and that help clearly impacts his decision, then you would be correct. However, if he exposes his hand and no one says anything, it should not be a fold.

Mason
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07-08-2024 , 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2RedCards
During one of the DDS that I played, the table had a hard (plastic?) surface surrounding the dealer tray, extending to the sides (seats 1 & 9) considerably more than a 'standard' casino table, and a noticeable height difference where it met the felt.

We had one dealer in particular that had difficulty pitching to seat 9 due to that surface...one or both cards would end up there rather than on the felt in front of the player.

One particular hand, the first card landed on the plastic, player grabbed it. When the second card was pitched it spun on the plastic and slid off the table between dealer and seat 9.

Dealer silently bent down and picked it up and placed it in front of seat 9. Couple of sideways glances by players, but no one said a word and play continued. Dealer was pushed shortly after.
If he dealt a jackpot during that down he probably would be sent home for the day and might be suspended. A huge no from me.
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07-08-2024 , 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth
So if he exposes his cards and then gets help from another player and that help clearly impacts his decision, then you would be correct.
Mason
Even this would be a stretch unless the player actively solicited help, imo. If they just expose their hand in some way and somebody else blurted something out, no way you could kill that hand. Should the player be exposing their hand? Eh, maybe not, but that shouldn't open them up to having their hand killed if some random other person can't keep their mouth shut.
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07-09-2024 , 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlz517
Even this would be a stretch unless the player actively solicited help, imo. If they just expose their hand in some way and somebody else blurted something out, no way you could kill that hand. Should the player be exposing their hand? Eh, maybe not, but that shouldn't open them up to having their hand killed if some random other person can't keep their mouth shut.
Agreed. You don't penalize the player who did not solicit help. The one who blurted out help, send him home for X days.
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07-10-2024 , 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
Agreed. You don't penalize the player who did not solicit help. The one who blurted out help, send him home for X days.
I agree with this, but I think the player who purposely exposed his hand to other players bears just as much responsibility.
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07-10-2024 , 08:46 AM
It is rarely a dead hand and never a fold in all the other rooms. There are some rooms that will kill an exposed hand/card in a cash game, and those are less and less (but one is in my area)! There may be a talking point that the Player didn't table anything v not protecting their hand while looking at it. The Dealer would call the Floor and put it on them.

'Penalties' escalate much more quickly in a tournament than in a cash game and really aren't detailed in TDA, so it's up to the Floor to decide based on how the spot played out and whether or not it affected other action. Floors don't like to be bothered, nor challenged, and any time you put your table standing into another person's control you need to be ready to accept the results no matter how 'off the wall' they may seem. (Room dependent)

Any Player who can see the cards should not comment and do their best not to give away any body language that may influence Player(s) left in the hand. They too could be subject to warnings and/or penalties depending on how severe their actions are interpreted by the Floor.

While it's likely OP lost the hand, thus the Thread, it's probably better in the long run to avoid these 'calling out' spots and be seen as a Rules Nit or semi-angler. On the flip side, this particular spot does need to be handled before the next hand begins. GL
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