On the other hand we can come to some vague and reasonable agreements about what is excessive tipping if people get over the *it's impossible to come to an agreement* mindset.

Honestly if you just said "ten dollars" and if you want to tip more gotta do it from not your stack that seems fine. Next hand.

Though you really just need a competent floor to not allow excessive tipping mid hand the one time every few years it happens

Then it should be like the guy below said something like $10. 100% of a $10 stack is better than 90% of a $650 one. And if the guy did tip his whole stack mid hand does his hand automatically become dead? Is he all in now? That doesn’t make sense

they won't change it bc it's basically a non issue.nobody is complaining about tipping a waitress a dollar or two mid hand. i've easily played 10,000 hours live and never seen this become an issue in any way .

Whatever old wive's tales people want to tell about a rich dude spite tipping a waitress 1000 dollars to piss of some poker pro don't change that.

If the max tip amount is a static number such as $10, then one could still tip his whole remaining stack. In which case:

lol no.

Maybe they don't complain because they don't want to be seen as a nit and kill the mood, or because most players are beginner level (despite playing hundreds/thousands of hours) and don't understand fundamental poker concepts? Just because someone hasn't raised an issue doesn't mean it was never an issue for anybody. It doesn't particularly bother me when someone tips a dollar early in a hand but it sure pisses me off when someone pre-tips before they shove or takes a larger amount off their stack, not that I'm going to raise an issue even in those cases.

I'm sure you've seen people pre-tip or pay from their stack during a hand before, right? Are you going to say $15 for food or $50 for a massage coming off a stack isn't an issue either?

A single dollar coming off a stack violates the integrity of the game. More than that is a matter of degree. When I make a decision based on $x stack size it's not fair to me for that stack size to change outside the betting rules of poker and affect me in a way I have no control over.

If it's not an issue maybe I should be able to go south whenever I want. Oh, tipping is an exception because of the practical benefit? I'd argue there is no practical benefit more important than game integrity and fairness.

Now I've said my thoughts. I don't want to continue to derail so I won't reply again unless someone wants to start a new thread.

right and there's nothing wrong with this.

i'm saying i've never seen someone tip an amount that would change the dynamics of the hand in all of the live poker i've played. yes i've seen someone pay 15 dollars for food or whatever. big deal. What's the lost ev of them doing this? about as close to 0 as you can get in the grand scheme of things. how many times a year do you happen to be in a hand against someone that you have covered when their food happens to arrive in a situation where you would end up all in against them AND that 15 dollars would in any way change how the hand played out? Once? Twice? Maybe even thrice (doubt it)? What's the lost ev overall per hour? Not even a penny.

would i have a problem with some rule being passed about this? no. but i also don't care if there isn't. it's a non issue overall.

I can too will end my derail here.

As I said any fixed amount or even a fixed % will be wrong for someone sometimes. You are fine with $10 even if that is the whole stack. If you are fine with that then fine for you.

For me I don’t even like $2 pretip with a shove of $100. But I don’t say anything.

And no. Tipping rest of the stack does not kill the hand.

What about this one. Someone tips his last $10 AND also gives waitress a twenty and ask for $10 back from her. Is that ok or should he tip the twenty and leave the $10 in his stack. Do you now get to tell him how he has to tip $20?

What if the stack tips keeps you from qualifying for a HH or BBJP? That would not bother u? Promise u it would bother most players.

Point remains any limit other than none while u have a hand is arbitrary

Wouldn't "you're not allowed to tip while you're in a hand," solve this? Obviously that would be annoying for servers who would have to wait or potentially miss a tip but would solve this issue. Plus in practice nobody would complain if you passed a reasonable tip within the game. Could also make the rule "you're not allowed to tip an egregious amount as ruled by the floor while in a hand."

My guess is this just doesn't happen enough for anyone to make a rule for it, plus the floor can just say don't do that again or your 86d right?

This is the only reasonable answer.

I love that the guy that was berating the donator got screwed.

That would be a good rule.

I've been in this situation for far smaller amounts and I don't let it happen..

If it were $650 I might just see if I could lock it up without anyone complaining.

+1.

What happened to me in the past and should be against the rules imo:
Shorty doubles his $100 stack against me, adds $20 of that to his stack and uses the other $80 to prepay for a 40 minute massage.

How about "You can only tip 1bb from your stack during a hand"?

And maybe a set a % of your stack that you can spend for food, tips, massage, etc. If you have $500 stack, then you cant remove >$50, for example. Still makes it easier to pay for those things without feeling like someone is Going South when they order a bunch of food and pay for a massage.

In our room the actual rule is that whatever is in your stack at the start of the hand must remain in your stack until the completion of the hand. Tipping or paying for food or messages is allowed between hands. So the situation as described in the OP (one of the classic poker myths and legends, like the old lady open folding a bad beat jackpot just to screw a rude guy) would not be allowed.

Now, as a convenience to keeping the drink service moving, and not having waitresses have to stand around until hands are complete, nominal tipping and drink purchases are allowed during a hand. But that is considered a courtesy exception that a player could object to if they felt the amount was excessive. In reality, no one objects to a few dollars that is in ghe usual tipping range. But anything beyond that would be considered inappropriate and would not be allowed.

There is no specific number. It depends on the players, the size of game, and the size of stacks. But the underlying rule is that what chips start a hand must finish the hand.

@albedoa: My bad, my reading comprehension sucks. thank you!

You might have misread what you quoted, or I am missing where the "not" is supposed to go.

It's funny, browser's data point indicates that we have been workshopping a rule that is likely already on the books in many places but rarely if ever comes up. The persistence of the legend has us think that nothing could prevent it from happening!

And if I lose the hand and can't pay the waitress?

If you lose the hand you are still required to pay the waitress. That becomes a matter between you, the floor, and food and beverage. I've seen it happen more in higher limit games where a guy runs up over 100 in a message bill, gets felted, then tries to skip out on the message bill. He's still responsible for it, and usually faces a ban if he doesnt come up woth the money.

Good story, fiction, but good.

I think it’s actually quite easy to draw a line in a fair and reasonable way for everyone involved.

You can tip a maximum of $5 from your stack. Anything else has to come out of your pocket.

Problem solved.

Not saying your $5 limit is bad but it is still completely arbitrary. It will not satisfy everyone every time. Plus what if someone decides to bleed down their stack by tipping ten people $5: dealer, waitress, three chip runners, brush, two floors, etc.

If someone wants to dump chips by tipping they can find away.

Nothings solved. OTOH I don’t lose sleep over this problem.

You could have saved some effort from both sides by letting us know that you have been using such a diluted meaning of "arbitrary".

Some people might not be satisfied with two pair or one pair beating a high card in hold'em since the latter hand is seen less frequently, and hand rankings are the closest example to a non-arbitrary rule that I can think of according to your definition, as you can point to their consistency across poker variants.

If you were using that definition when you first raised non-arbitrariness as a consideration:

Then it follows that any rule tends to be a bad rule, since all rules are arbitrary. Luckily, we don't require unanimous agreement to establish rules, or else we wouldn't have any!

This does not come off as an honest reading of the described rule.

Hand ranks are not arbitrary. Yes two pair is much more common winning hand than high card. But for a single random seven card hand two pair is harder to get. So there is logic. Thus you argument is specious.

Btw very early on I was clear on my question. Also my use of abitrary is standard

Tipping 90% of a $700 stack is outside the spirit of the rule but it was the original posted premise.

Fore is using arbitrary capriciously.

I see what you did there.

You know what else is arbitrary? Buy-in limits at games. They definitely don't satisfy everyone. I know a lot of players would like to buy-in for a lot more, and a lot of player would like to buy-in for a lot less. They definitely do not satisfy everyone every time but no one every said that's a requirement of every rule enforced in a poker room. For some reason you seem to be the only one making that distinction.

As someone else said, this is an extremely liberal interpretation of the rule and not at all what I had in mind.

If someone wants to buy in for less than the minimum, or more than the maximum, then they'll find a way.

Oh wait, that literally never happens.