What? Did I miss something?

Since when do we give exact counts in live tournaments?

If the house rule is view only, if the dealer did not assist, if the dealer kept the table captain out if it, I would be very surprised if the floor or dealer at his instruction or the player would be required to give exact count no matter how much request or insisted. Once the “reflex” response is avoided, I don’t see this information being provided.

Also if the player is not answering the question verbally, why would you think he is going to start handling and stacking chips. I promise you I won’t provide either a verbal response or stack chips for your request. And the dealer will have to pull them forward to do an exact count (but my stacks will already be in 20’s and big chips in front or on top)

Problem is this benefit players who know the 'house rules' and penalize those that don't. Asking about house procedure isn't hypothetical either.

Just ask the dealer how much a minimum raise is and compare that to your own estimate of the player’s stack. Or learn what a min-raise is yourself.

As posited the question was a rules hypothetical not a applicable house procedure. As others have pointed out there are ways within the rules to get the information. Ask about the rule itself not about his options.

Agree with Dinesh and Fore - just ask your opponent to give you a clear view of his stack - never been a problem.

In Mississippi where Cash is still allowed at some Casino's - you can ask your opponent how much they are playing - because it is not easy to tell how many Hundo's a opponent has.

Asking for the Cash count has never been a issue in my experience in playing in games where Hundo's are allowed.

So long as everything is visible and organized so highest value chips aren't hidden I think it is fine to not have an exact count and expect a visual estimate to be good enough.

So you are Player A.
You are sitting at the other end of the table from the SB.
Can you tell if he has $59 and not $60?

How often does that make any difference?

a. That was the OP's scenario.


b. I guess all rules must be black/white. No wiggle room. Because of course dealers/floors cannot be trusted to use common sense in rare occasions.

What has changed is (sorry for repeating myself) that we now want a game that is friendly and inviting to new players and recs, rather than a rough and tumble, anything goes, every man for himself game like existed when these rules first were written down and reflected the game as it was being played.

It is true that as you get better, you also get better at estimating stack sizes. It is true that as you get better you need to ask for a stack count less and less. That doesn't mean we should tell new players they are on their own, especially since they have alternatives (online) that give them that info.

I do agree that cash playing added a different wrinkle which also made it more important to be able to ask for a count of bills. I just don't agree that now that they are (mostly) gone, there is no longer a net benefit to this rule change. Obviously, not everyone agrees.

FWIW if I want to know, I usually politely ask how much they have behind and almost always they will give me an accurate estimate or even an exact count. Occasionally I run into the "silently lifts hands" response and even then, if they're over the other side of the table, other players tend to helpfully provide estimates anyway.

I am a rec, a serious one but still a rec. I dont find this rule off putting at all. When I first learned this no count rule I was a fairly new rec. I think was still playing more BJ than poker at that time.

The other issue I see in your reasoning is that it really isn’t new players who are asking.

Apparently they've been a bit more accommodating in the MSPT and HPT 'mini' tour poker stops, or perhaps the Players have been. I see that per TDA #25 you are due an exact count only when a Player is all-in? Pardon my French, but DUH .. of course you are entitled to an exact count when the chips are in the middle.

I realize there's been lots of discussion surrounding chip stacks and visibility of all denominations, but I say again we've been spoiled in our region when it comes to counts 'in tournaments'. GL