Two players on the river, there's a bet and a call. One player shows his hand. The other shows his hand to a third player sitting next to him and then mucks his hand face down. A fourth player who was dealt into the hand (but probably folded pre-flop) wants to see the mucked hand as the dealer buries the hand in the muck.

Is the fourth player allowed to see the mucked hand (under the show one, show all rule)? Should a floor be called to resolve the situation? And then, because someone is going to ask it, if the mucked hand is the best hand, does that player win the pot?

If he spoke up while the cards were identifiable... yes, hand should be shown, it is not live.

Unless the other player in the pot is the one that asked to see it.

This is a fun one and can ruffle some feathers along the way.

IMO there's nothing specifically covering SOSA in either Robert's or TDA AT SHOWDOWN. Robert's does a great job of explaining the requirements for a hand in progress while TDA just states that OPTAH is in effect with potential penalties.

Typically a room/Floor/Dealer will call it the SOSA 'rule' but, again at Showdown, IWTSTH is a more applicable rule to apply.

Robert's addresses IWTSTH specifically by defining two different 'kinds' of requests. If a request is made by a Player without a hand (but originally dealt in), the hand will be shown and it will not have rights to the pot. If the request is made by a Player with a live hand, then it can still win the pot when tabled. You can imagine the dust created if a Dealer needs to determine who first requested the hand be shown .. and it's the best hand.

TDA has narrowed the rule to 'only' Players with live hands being allowed to make the request and the hand would be live.

So during the hand we have SOSA and the conditions surrounding when to 'show' based on who saw it and who remains in the hand.

And at Showdown we have IWTSTH and whether a room chooses to go old school Robert's or new school TDA. Obviously a room could have different viewpoints for cash and tournament play as is the case for these 'fringe' rules in a lot of rooms.

Probably a longer answer than you expected, but as with most things in poker .. it depends. GL


IMO .. in a cash game .. too bad so sad, a Player can show who he wants and muck. However, in a tournament I think it's more appropriate to allow 'any' information to be equally disbursed at the current table. While I think you'll find most rooms will enforce SOSA I do think the trend is moving away from it.

Have seen variations of that one probably >10 times. Sometimes the hand is shown to another player at the table, sometimes to a spectatator.

Every single time the dealer just flipped over the cards once somebody asked for it. I've never seen those cards being the best hand. But if they were, the hand shouldn't be live.

Side note: One time my opponent folded to my river bet and I looked at my cards one more time before pushing them forward to be mucked. As the dealer grabbed them, the other guy yelled at him to stop because I had shown them to my neighbor. Before me or my neighbor had a chance to deny that, the dealer already had placed them face-up on the felt. I'm 90% sure the other guy knew I didn't show and just wanted to see my cards. I just let it go, don't think there's much that I could have done except for complaining about the dealer to the floor?

Yes, depends and no.

If a player shows his hand to someone, then Show-one-show-all applies. If there is some kind of conflict over it, yea call the floor. While the dealer could resolve it, the floor quiets things down faster and moves the game along, which is in everyone's best interests.

Lastly, once a hand hits the muck, it's dead, Dead, DEAD.

As to the question of whether or not the cards are identifiable and if is the best hand, that is room and floorman dependant. However, there are two rules that apply, one that is always written and one usually implied.

The floorman may make a ruling that is in the best interests of the game and that his decision is final.

Players must protect their own hand.

I don't see where the I-Want-To-See-That-Hand rule comes in here. That being a completely separate rule about a hand that was live, but not shown at showdown.

There is no magic muck.

" A fourth player who was dealt into the hand (but probably folded pre-flop) "

So that was addressed. But if the request is under SOSA not IWTSTH, it should not be alive regardless of who asks.

Isn't that EXACTLY what happened here? It is actually both SOSA and IWTSTH. Now many rooms have moved away from allowing IWTSTH. But in rooms that allow that, player has the right to request seeing the hand under both rules.

The SOSA rule is more universal and a "stronger" right to request IMO. One of my gripes is no player should HAVE to ask under SOSA. The dealer should automatically invoke SOSA. This avoids the situation where the winning hand asks to see under SOSA. While under IWTSTH, winner asking would keep the hand alive but under SOSA that is not true. But if the winner does ask under SOSA and if the shown hand is actually winning, there is going to be an argument

You show your cards, even unintentionally but obviously, the hand gets turned up (dead) even if no one asks. That will quickly halt the 'show my neighbor looking for empathy'.

BTW, the muck is not magic and until the cards are unidentifiable IN (not touching and often not on) the muck, the hand is alive. Identifiable is the key and the floor should always be involved at that point.

When you took one last look, if someone could have seen it...
You probably weren't as careful looking as when in the hand.

There's just so much.

No.

The hand was live but not shown at showdown. IWTSTH applies here. SOSA applies too but is redundant in rooms where IWTSTH is available.

actually, RROP does cover showdown. It breaks the rule into two parts. First, if a player shows another player the hand during the "deal". And second, what happens if the cards are shown after the "deal". RROP defines "deal" as it is used here as the time from when the cards are dealt until the pot is pushed. (so essentially deal is used the way we use "hand" today.) Since showdown occurs during the deal as used in RROP, that section is used at showdown.

Here's the rule, and below that is the definition of "deal" from the RROP glossary.

Granted I haven't played in a large number of rooms for some time, however, with some extreme conditions excluded (which aren't being discussed), everywhere I've played in California and Nevada says a hand is dead if it touched the muck.

As to the SOSA vs IWTSTH, the difference depends on the player's action. Generally, only players active on the river can call the IWTSTH, while anyone at the table, or perhaps dealt in can call the SOSA rule.

Since the OP described the situation as the 4th player folded on the flop and the Villain showed his hand to his neighbor, the SOSA rule would apply, but not the IWTSTH rule.

I don't know where you play so I certainly won't say "you're wrong, there's no magic muck".

That said, maybe you just never got into a situation at (some of) those card rooms where a hand was ruled live because it was clearly identifiable even though the cards touched the muck.

You want to talk about 'magic'. I saw a Showdown where one of the Player's cards ended face up on the muck pile after a 'flip to show/table'. The V and Dealer both stopped and wanted a ruling. The Floor comes over and rules the holding dead and awards the pot to the V.

Later on the Floor has to cash out the Hero and admits to the incorrect ruling based on his old room's policy and then chirps in .. "Well, looks like you recovered pretty nicely anyway."

Hero and Floor had a history of 'discussions' about rules and rulings and pretty much took the opportunity to screw over Hero.

I'm not talking the days when your 'show' couldn't even touch the Board, this is 2017-18 and the Floor constantly leaned on Rule #1 to justify bias in rulings.

Just goes to show you that you really need to be diligent with your actions and not put your 'result' in the hands of someone else. GL

Did the Floor have to make Hero right, from V's stack or from his or the casino's pocket? Seems like with the admission at cash out, Hero might have a case with the local gambling authority.

WTF is this "magic muck" nonsense. The muck is the muck, discarded hands. The rule that says a hand in with other hands being dead is older that the OMC's in the game. Being cute and giving it a stupid name changes nothing.

Your position seems to be that even if someone discards their hand face down towards the muck so that at least one of the cards touches other cards that were already discarded, the hand is still live, so long as it's clearly identifiable.

I say that violates a basic rule of poker. The player's intent was 100% clear when they discarded the hand and the line has to be drawn somewhere. By your logic, a player that throws his cards off the table still has a live hand. After all, the cards are clearly identifiable.

That’s not “my position” but a pretty standard rule for situations where a player doesn’t face action.

Even in the super old school RRoP it doesn’t say the hand is dead. It says that it might be dead.

Can you please list the card rooms in Nevada where a hand is automatically killed if one of the cards touches the muck?

Its the rule. Happened to me once in a tourney. 4 liner on the board and action goes check check on the river. I show my AA and my opponent mucks. Dealer has the cards in his hand still but they are touching the muck and the villain says "wait I have a straight". Dealer starts to give villain his cards back to turn over and I object thinking they are dead if they touch the muck. Floor rules that clearly recoverable cards are live and villain got his cards back and turned over a straight.

1. A magic muck is the misconception that the muck has the mahic ability to kill a hand simply through content.

2. You cannot fold when not facing action, so intent does not matter

3. "Your position seems to be that even if someone discards their hand face down towards the muck so that at least one of the cards touches other cards that were already discarded, the hand is still live, so long as it's clearly identifiable." This is exactly what he is saying, and it is the rule in the prevailing number of card rooms.

The normal defining goal in poker rulings is 'best live hand wins'. As stated before, a player cannot, at showdown, kill his hand simply by stating his intent(as you cannot fold when not facing action). (There is an edge case exemption to this, where your verbal declaration induces another player to discard his hand, which is then mucked, most rooms will consider your hand dead). So the discarded hand, at showdown, is live until it is not identifiable.

Can’t speak to CA rooms but I am not aware of any room in LV where touching muck kills hand. Given the number of LV rooms I have not played in there could be a few that do have a magic muck rule.

There are room differences but iirc RTOP specifies any player felt in can request IWTSTH. So your generally modifier is not accurate. If ISTSTH is allowed generally anyone felt in can request. If abused the request can be denied whether player still had cards on river or not.

Here is the actual rule from RROP, which goes back at least 17 years for the last edition. It's under the section titled Dead Hands.

The myth that cards are dead if they even touch any part of the muck pile has been around a long time. But as an actual rule, not so much.

In believe we have been down a similar path before. (If I have you confused with a different player my apologies). You are strongly and adamantly insisting multiple knowledgable posters are wrong. You will note they/we are not saying “think”. They/I are stating as a fact that (most) LV rooms touching the muck does not kill a hand. As long as hand is clearly identifiable it can be live.

Facing action a hand doesn’t have even need to be near muck to be dead. Tossed foreword face down while facing action is a fold and hand can’t be retrieved. But at showdown live as long as clearly identifiable. This why proper procedure is to put cards INTO the muck and not ON TOP of muck.

Do you not remember the last time we played "name a card room" with this guy.

OK, so the rule has become rare. However, I know both Commerce and Bicycle had it in the mid 1980s. So, it is not a myth, just old. I'm trying to remember the room in LV that had it. I know it wasn't Bellagio, but was on the strip circa 1995-2005. I just remember it had 4-5 tables. I also played O/8 in Washington which had the rule. Come to think of it, Peppermill in Reno may have had the rule as well.

I'm beginning to think that it's a leftover from 5 card games and I just happen to play regularly somewhere where it's still the rule.