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Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud.

01-18-2023 , 02:45 AM
Who goes first in stud? All the articles I can find online say it goes by position while the TDA says high card by suit. Going by position means that the last player will always have the best position which seems unfair.

Call or raise? In a game where $1 chips don't play (unless you're all-in), there's a bet of $25 and the next player throws in a $100 chip and a $1 chip without saying anything.

Does TDA say anything about fanning stubs after the dealer puts out the final street? Anything related to how big to fan it, when to drop it, and if the cut card should be on top or is stub management house-dependent?

How would you resolve the following scenario: 8-handed, every seat is now filled, every player wants to play, and every player is willing to pay whatever they need to in order to play this hand:

seat 1: Big blind
seat 2: Button
seat 3: New player
seat 4: New player
seat 5: New player
seat 6: Missed Blind
seat 7: Missed Blind
seat 8: Small Blind

Seat 8 and Seat 1 would have been the blinds had the new players or the players with the missed blinds not come back.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-18-2023 , 04:54 AM
Bring in is the lowest card, subsequent streets is the best hand. What constitutes the best and worst hand depends on the variant that is being played. There is no position in stud unless it's Mexican Poker or some other obscure variant with a button.

Technically that would be a call because the $1 isn't in play, but I would probably just announce it as a raise and see how the players react. Any resistance by any player in the hand and I'm calling the floor and making them decide.

The only guidance I've seen on fanning the stub is from the WSOP dealer guide. TDA doesn't get into things like that. Different dealer schools probably teach slightly different techniques.
http://www.wsopdealersandstaff.com/d...formation.html

One player at a time can buy the button. S3 gets first choice. If they wait, choice goes to S4, etc. Some rooms will also allow the next person to come in with a straddle, but they still have their missed blind/new player status and would have to buy it the following hand. Everyone else has to wait their turn. I've had extreme cases where 6+ players left and 6 new players sat down all at once. I just said screw it, I'm treating this as a new game and drawing for the button.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-18-2023 , 08:28 AM
I'm with Reducto on mostly everything.

If I were the Dealer (or the Floor) I would call it a raise to $100 because the $1 chip doesn't play but the intent was clearly to raise. If the Floor got called over I would guess it would be a call most of the time.

On the hand where 5 players just sat down I do think its possible that Seats 3 through 7 would get asked if they want to buy the button. And anyone after them must wait (except Seat 6 and 7 who can post and play - but I wouldn't because you are basically UTG on consecutive hands).

My preferred solution would be to have them all wait a hand and have Seat 8 be the SB and Seat 1 the BB. Seat 6 and 7 could Post the next hand or wait for the BB.

A better solution occurred at Artichoke Joe's (I believe) where Seat 3 bought the BTN and Seat 4 posted a dead BB, "Seat 8" had to post a dead SB, and the next hand Seat 4 became the SB. The two new players were in LP and posted a BB as well. I kind of like this because then everybody gets to play the hand and nobody would have to miss like 4 hands. In this case the people who missed their blinds could post to play every hand back if they wanted.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-18-2023 , 09:50 AM
1) Low card .. best hand

2) Unless combined into a 'full' chip, any amount of $1 would be considered 'pieces of paper' and thus the $100 would be considered a 'single silent' Call.

3) Room/Series dependent .. TDA is for the 'Poker' and each room and or Series Sponsor may or may not have a set of Dealer Guidelines. In most cases the 'alphabet soup' tournament series are just happy to have a Dealer at each table! Any variance in procedure might be weeded out as the field shrinks if they have any oversight in who stays in the rotation.

4) Fun spot. Seat 3 has first option to BTB and then (if allowed) 4 to 7 could 'UTG' Straddle as long as the previous Players declined, starting with Seat 4.

If S3-5 BTB then Seat 6 and/or 7 can just post and play/BTB in flow as each hand plays out.

Where it gets complicated is that 'someone' has to BTB and/or sit out (or continue to straddle) until Seat 8 is positionally correct to be the SB. This is where it could become an issue since what any one Player does will affect if (and how) the next Player can or can't participate in the next hand.

You could attempt to get an agreement before the 'first' hand begins and then the Dealer could mandate the next couple of hands in order to get back to Seat 8's SB in an orderly fashion. There may be multiple options or no options depending on which room this happens in.

There are too many scenarios depending on what each Player decides .. in my area here are some

Seat 3 .. Can BTB or wait one hand
Seat 4 .. Can straddle UTG if S3 BTB (and commits to BTB in the next hand) .. we'll deal with it if they bust
Seat 4 .. Can wait one hand and BTB in the next if S3 does BTB
Seat 4 .. Could have to wait two hands and come in behind the Button

Seat 5 .. Could post in Hand #1 if both S3 (BTB) and S4 (Straddle) are playing, would also have to BTB on S4's Button
Seat 5 .. Could Straddle UTG if either S3/S4 BTB (which means one of them is sitting out) .. then BTB in Hand #2
Seat 5 .. Could wait one or two hands then BTB depending on what S3/S4 do
Seat 5 .. Could wait up to three hands and then come in behind the Button

Seat 6 and 7 .. Could be posting, UTG Straddle or BTB in Hand #1 depending on what S3-5 decide .. then BTB 'in turn' also depending on what others do

Seat 8 .. Could have up to 5 hands dealt before they are in the SB

'In my room' we figure out how to get a Player a hand, but this may be met with some resistance in other rooms.

You have to have Players that understand that a 'Post' is not a 'BTB' and they may have to put in 2+1 within a couple of hands in order for them to be involved in the maximum amount of hands available to them. GL
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-18-2023 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
2) Unless combined into a 'full' chip, any amount of $1 would be considered 'pieces of paper' and thus the $100 would be considered a 'single silent' Call.
That question depends on house rules. In a place where the $1 chips play in an all-in, a player might be allowed to combine them into a chip that plays like 5 $1 chips into a $5 chip. I wouldn't be sure about that though.

In a place where they don't play in an all-in you certainly can't combine them though. TBH I'm not even sure if all rooms have written rules about "tipping chips".

FWIW, I'm generally in the camp of "intent should matter". So if we treat a $100 chip + card protector as a raise if the player grabbed the latter by mistake, we should obviously do the same for a $100 + $1 chip. If the card protector doesn't constitute a raise, I don't see how the $1 chip should be treated as a raise though. They're basically the same thing.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-19-2023 , 02:16 AM
Question 4: either new game, or wait one hand and let the two missed blinds post in the CO/hj and let everyone else come in for free. You could theoretically just let everyone buy the button in turn but it seems rather silly given that they could just wait one hand and allow the situation to resolve easily. Usually the button will give up their position and let the people come in as a new game because people prefer to play full table. After all they were already playing three handed anyway and would have been big blind the next hand had the blinds continued as normal for a three handed game.

Edit: Not much to add to question 1 because reducto covered everything. I would just speculate that the articles you read were not referring to the order of action but rather to the order cards are dealt. You always deal starting from the leftmost player to the rightmost player, since there’s no dealer button in stud.

Last edited by checkraisdraw; 01-19-2023 at 02:22 AM.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-20-2023 , 08:07 AM
seat 1: Big blind
seat 2: Button
seat 3: New player
seat 4: New player
seat 5: New player
seat 6: Missed Blind
seat 7: Missed Blind
seat 8: Small Blind

Ok, so I've thought about this a little bit and I think I found a way to get up to 7 players into the hand. Seat 6 and Seat 7 can buy the button but not at the same time. If seat 6 wants to buy it, seat 7 has to wait a hand unless they want to straddle. Seat 7s willingness to straddle and then buy the button will allow all 8 players to play.

For seats 3-5, why not have them come in for free and then have the button skip them?

Here's how the next three hands play out:

seat 1:
seat 2: Button
seat 3:
seat 4:
seat 5:
seat 6: Buying the button
seat 7: Straddle
seat 8:

seat 1:
seat 2:
seat 3:
seat 4:
seat 5:
seat 6: Button
seat 7: Buying the button
seat 8:

And then back to normal:

seat 1: Big Blind
seat 2:
seat 3:
seat 4:
seat 5:
seat 6:
seat 7: Button
seat 8: Small Blind
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-20-2023 , 01:51 PM
At some rooms (specifically Bellagio), as a new player, you are allowed to "post in between", which is to say post to enter the game when sitting between the button and the SB. Then next hand the button skips you and goes to the former SB. Compared to posting after the button, you're putting your post in with worse position, but you're getting an extra hand. Many players choose to come in this way, waiting a few hands if necessary. Weird.

Anyway, under this system, seats 3-5 can post between and come in immediately. As noted, seated 6 and 7 can BTB, but only one can at a time. In the right circumstances you can let 7 straddle now and then BTB later, but since you can't actually force him to put in money in a future hand it's a little tricky. Though I suppose if he doesn't you just give him another missed blind button and it's the same ****.

You only let 3-5 come in for free if the game normally plays without requiring a new player to post. In that situation (which is honestly fine for a NL game, but not for a limit game), I'd be totally fine with that.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-20-2023 , 09:21 PM
Many interesting takes butTBH I suspect fastest and easiest way at to handle this s play one more hand 3 handed then advance btn to seat 8. Everyone can then come I. “normal “ either posting or not as needed per room rules. I suspect figuring out a faster way of that is allowed and works then explaining would take longer.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-21-2023 , 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
At some rooms (specifically Bellagio), as a new player, you are allowed to "post in between", which is to say post to enter the game when sitting between the button and the SB. Then next hand the button skips you and goes to the former SB. Compared to posting after the button, you're putting your post in with worse position, but you're getting an extra hand. Many players choose to come in this way, waiting a few hands if necessary. Weird.

Anyway, under this system, seats 3-5 can post between and come in immediately. As noted, seated 6 and 7 can BTB, but only one can at a time. In the right circumstances you can let 7 straddle now and then BTB later, but since you can't actually force him to put in money in a future hand it's a little tricky. Though I suppose if he doesn't you just give him another missed blind button and it's the same ****.

You only let 3-5 come in for free if the game normally plays without requiring a new player to post. In that situation (which is honestly fine for a NL game, but not for a limit game), I'd be totally fine with that.
I think if they straddle but don’t come in buying the button it’s fine to give them a missed blind. After all the whole thing about buying the button is that it defers the “natural” sb, creating a forced situation of the original sb bb before the button was bought. Therefore since he owes both blinds anyway it will be a missed blind as it would be in a 3 blind game where someone posts the straddle and then doesn’t post the button. This even works for both places where if you miss one blind miss both and places where you only miss the sb if you post bb but get dealt out next hand.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-21-2023 , 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
Many interesting takes butTBH I suspect fastest and easiest way at to handle this s play one more hand 3 handed then advance btn to seat 8. Everyone can then come I. “normal “ either posting or not as needed per room rules. I suspect figuring out a faster way of that is allowed and works then explaining would take longer.
But then someone would have to miss a hand. Not me, buddy.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-22-2023 , 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace
But then someone would have to miss a hand. Not me, buddy.
I suppose you don't have the time to wash your hands after going pee-pee either.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-22-2023 , 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
play one more hand 3 handed then advance btn to seat 8.
And what if a roomwide jackpot hits? It's EV- to sit out.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-22-2023 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1
And what if a roomwide jackpot hits? It's EV- to sit out.
That jackpot is going to hit while when spend the next 5 min debating the various options and decide who has to be the one to sit out anyway.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-22-2023 , 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1
And what if a roomwide jackpot hits? It's EV- to sit out.
I don’t play in rooms where there is a roomshare so this doesn’t effect me. If I was in that kind of room, all the more reason to just agree with the fastest solution, which is to either start a new game or wait one hand.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-24-2023 , 04:44 AM
Other posters have given great answers to all of the questions. The only thing I can add is about fanning the stub.

My personal preference as a dealer is to take the cut card from the bottom and set the stub on the table with the cut card covering the top card. No fanning of the deck. My thought is that if there is that one in a million chance that there is a boxed (exposed) card in the stub it won't be revealed and affect the action. This would also apply to any marked cards as well.

That said, most if not all of the absolute best dealers I have ever seen fan the stub when they are done dealing.

It mostly depends upon how people were taught and it doesn't really matter how it is done as long as the stub is recoverable.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-25-2023 , 12:37 AM
I know there are some casinos where that is accepted, but I think that the deck should be fanned out at the end of the hand so that the deck can be regularly shown to the players for open inspection that there are no marked cards and just as a good faith show of transparency to the players. It’s the same reason why the deck should be cut with one hand, or a dealer shows their hand when making a drop. If there are boxed cards in the deck, the players should definitely be aware of that. Showing the deck as procedure is more important than how it may theoretically impact any individual hand imo.

Of course if it is accepted procedure in your room then that supersedes what I’m saying.

Just to be clear, I have dealt a hand before where I fanned the deck at the end and there were a total of FOUR boxed cards (I was dealing a stud game, and was an extremely new dealer at the time). It was very embarrassing, although it was lucky that the hand had ended without showdown so it didn’t impact what possible hands the guy could have. But even if it DID, I still think the players had a right to know that I had made a huge error the hand before immediately…

Last edited by checkraisdraw; 01-25-2023 at 12:42 AM.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote
01-28-2023 , 02:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I know there are some casinos where that is accepted, but I think that the deck should be fanned out at the end of the hand so that the deck can be regularly shown to the players for open inspection that there are no marked cards and just as a good faith show of transparency to the players. It’s the same reason why the deck should be cut with one hand, or a dealer shows their hand when making a drop. If there are boxed cards in the deck, the players should definitely be aware of that. Showing the deck as procedure is more important than how it may theoretically impact any individual hand imo.
That is a good point and something I never thought about. I come from a table games background so my instinct is to protect the current hand as much as possible, but I can see in poker where transparency is more important. Definitely something to consider.
Bunch of questions involving oversized chips, missing blinds, fans, and stud. Quote

      
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