Anybody else love it when they wiggle a kicker at showdown that doesn't play?

I agree that's not fun.

But you can't unring a bell, and at low stakes, people are always saying such things. So if OPTAH at showdown no longer exists, then people have no reason to get angry at such things.

I know I'm not going to change this, and I respect OPTAH as it currently exists. But more and more people play online, where OPTAH is NOT in effect at showdown, so I think eventually this may change.

More tales from my crazy floor!

Without being too explicit, we're hosting a large internationally-branded tournament series. I'm usually in high stakes cash, but yesterday I was in the tourney room. Any tournament I've ever dealt anywhere, on the breaks we sort the cards. This not only looks professional, it's transparency for the players. It doesn't matter if I know they're all there, it's what I can demonstrate to others that's important.

Anyway, nobody else is doing this, because in our room it's not policy to sort on breaks. I of course do it anyway, because screw that, I'm representing the bigger brand here, and my tables are going to be clean regardless of what anybody else is doing.

Floor comes over and tells me to stop sorting, just count the cards. I tell him I am counting them, I just happen to be counting in a particular way. He insists that I stop, with the following reasoning: If I'm the only one doing it, then it's unfair to the other tables. Unless all the dealers are doing something, then I can't be the only one doing it.

So since all other dealers roll their stubs and flash their burns, I should do that too, otherwise it's unfair?

Online OPTAH never exists .... it can't ......

I hope that live poker doesn't become more like online poker.

Years ago I was in a situation with an idiot of a manager where I was dealing sit n go freerolls. The first day this happened he was so ridiculously unorganized that after I finished one tournament and was sorting the cards he would come flying over with a bunch of players and try to start the next one immediately (because he scheduled so poorly we were backed up ... so he comes over and tells me not to sort the cards we are starting the next one. OK this makes sense don;t sort the cards because we don;t have time.

So the next week we are less busy, I finish a tournament and start sorting the cards, but know its probably going to be 15 to 20 minutes before the next one will start....

He walks by sees me sorting the cards and barks "I told you not to do that."

Yeah, referencing back to our setup change argument a while back, this guy clearly doesn't get above first level thinking.

Oh well, I'm likely changing casinos anyway. Same parent company, but hopefully better staff. And actually most of the staff at this place is decent, and one of the main guys is one of the best I've ever worked with. It's mostly this dude, but he's there more than anybody else.

Or when someone is quick to yell "chop chop" when the kickers do play?

"But there's a pair on the board!"

Yeah, and the other two cards are a trey and a deuce. Kickers play.

Trying my best to get 5 seat to put up the small blind. He's that guy who never ever pays attention to when it's his turn.

8 seat is a little redhead who I've worked with at multiple casinos over the years and jokingly says "C'mon Quad control your game."

Naturally I respond "I'm trying my best... but what man could control you?"

Good for a couple of bucks.

Y'all are pretty good at giving me reality checks, so let me know if I'm over-reacting here. Warning, could get ranty.

We're hosting a special event, and I just finished a 64-hour week. This happened in my final half hour.

Push into a 5/10 PLO. First thing I notice is that a stack of a player on dinner break used to have about 6k in blacks and purples, but is now just a couple of stacks of greens, and I'm pretty sure the player hasn't returned. I ask the outgoing dealer, "What happened to those chips?" He answers, "Huh?" One player smirks and says, "We borrowed them."

This is not okay.

Unfortunately, the floor is busy handling some high-maintenance player somewhere else, so I'm mostly on my own here. The table has four drunken idiots who claim to be buddies with the missing player, and say they've been taking chips from him all night. They assure me it's okay, because they're friends, and they were texting him to let him know. They also assure me they told the other dealer they were doing it. Gee, then how did that dealer have no idea the chips were gone? So already they're lying to my face.

I again say that this is not okay, and that we have a problem here. Then they start talking about me like I'm some goddamn zoo exhibit. "Oh look how mad he is! He's so serious! Giggle giggle!" WTF, who acts like that. Other players on the table are also defending it. "Oh, it's okay, if it's a problem we'll settle it up." I try to explain that I have no idea who this person is, and someone who is stealing chips is going to tell me it's okay. I appeal that they probably don't want random people taking their chips while they're away from the table. "Oh, but we're all friends here, we're telling the truth." Yeah, not only is that what a thief would say, it's still not allowed. There's absolutely no way to know how much was taken. This is absurd that none of you can understand why this is a problem.

At this point they're all getting angry at me, and also making a mess of the game. We use all-in buttons, and when I toss one at a player who gets all-in, he throws it back at me. The buddy actually shows up at some point, and acts like he's pissed his chips are missing, but he seems three sheets to the wind and is angry about something else too and is wandering around, so I can't get a straight answer out of him about what he wants to do. Another drunken idiot just grabs the entire stack of the missing player and makes a mess of it mixed in with his chips. I stop the game and call the floor.

They continue to tell me that I'm over-reacting, that it's all perfectly fine. They ask me what my problem is.

So I flat out tell them. I say that I don't respect people who don't respect the game, and they clearly have no respect for the game. They tell me they don't like me and they want me off the table, and I say that's fine by me. I tell the floor that they don't want me there, and I refuse to deal at a table where players are stealing chips, so time to get me off of there. And that's the last I had to do with that debacle.

...

Thoughts? Opinions?

In other news, I also had an excellent night at the 10/25/50 PLO. That game was an absolute dream. They were also a crazy wild game, but they understood my role in helping them manage the chaos, and respected my ability to do so. I'd deal that all day every day if I could. The most fun dealing I've had in a very long time. But 5/10 PLO is always a madhouse. Big enough that they think they're hot stuff, but small enough that they have no concept of what utter goddamn morons they all are.

Oh, as I was waiting to be moved off the table, the guy who smirked about "borrowing" the chips and talked about me like a zoo exhibit, tells me that he's a dealer, and he knows it's okay to do what they did. Some other asshat says that he's also a dealer. So I tell them that they're awful dealers if they don't understand why this is unacceptable. But since they've already been lying to me, I'm pretty sure they're making that **** up.

Ugh, **** those guys.

I work in a really small room. And recently as CSR'S we have decided its time to start writing dealers up for mistakes after 10 years of old managment doing nothing. Now I feel that a burn and turn is always (% 95) a dealers fault. I unfortunatly was the first to write people up 3 for being late 1 for a burn and turn.

The burn and turn dealer lost his mind. He was very argumentive and felt it was the end of the world. Am I off base here or do you guys feel that write ups help keep the standard of dealers higher.?

If this is the wrong spot for this my bad, but I couldn't find anything on thw internet regarding a key on repremanding dealers.

I used to be a habitual burn & turner.

It's almost always the dealer's fault. Even if a player is hiding his cards, I should know that he has them. Even if I can make a very strong case about why I was distracted or thought he mucked or whatever else, it's still my fault. Arguing about it means I'm not taking responsibility for my actions.

But of course people are going to bristle at sudden change of management policy. Maybe you can ease them into this more gracefully.

I don't think 1 burn and turn should be a write up but habitual should be. Maybe 2 in a month or something like that.

Ya I was handing out written warnings. But just the paper they had to sign was the worst thing in their eyes. Cause it had never been done. What it comes down to is that all our CSR'S have to do it the same or then all hells gonna break loose. What type of punishment do other casinos have for people who are late, burn and turn min 3 times a month and argue with customers?

We have a on site DC to help these dealers and I feel that this type of personal awarness will help us grow, even though I was told by the dealers yesterday that I was being a moral killer yesterday.

I also think it helps our A dealers when they don't have to take 15 min. Getting the table back in order after pushing someone who stumbles through their job

Giving written warnings for a single burn and turn seems to me to be overdoing it. And if I worked in room which never disciplined people and then one day I had a single burn and turn and you were asking me to sign a written warning I would be really pissed off. I would feel like I was being singled out and held to a standard that no one else was being held to. I would look around at the dealers I know who constantly do things wrong (especially things that they don't call a floor for) and wonder why I am being disciplined for a single instance of a mistake. I would assume I had been targeted.

You can say its not a write up ... its a warning but as far as I am concerned if its written and I'm being asked to sign it .... its a write-up.

As for how we are discliplined at my work .... well supposedly we have a progressive discipline system ... yet it seems to me that the first step on the progression is often termination .....

Attendance and lateness is on a point system that is handled administratively. You get written up (as a warning) at certain point totals, suspended at a certain, and terminated at a certain point (though it is possible to skip past a suspension and go straight to termination).

Lastly a burn and turn is not always the fault if the dealer. There is one type of burn and turn which is typically the fault of the floor (for making a bad ruling) This is the burn and turn where the last to act has made some motion which the dealer understands as a check .... but then claims he never checked ....

As for arguing with players..... this is a problem. Certainly you don;t want a dealer who is constantly arguing with players .... but sometimes its just unavoidable...... and sometimes the floors are a significant part of the problem.

Lets suppose you are dealing. You are supposed to maintain some degree of control over your game. Suppose you have regular players who ignore the rules and do what they want. You aren;t a good dealer if you allow them to do this. So you have to do something.

So you call the floor and you tell the floor "Bob" is intentiobnally acting out of turn, or Bob is talking about the hand in progress, or Bob is speaking Lithuanian at the table ..... and I have warned him about it but he continues to do so.

And the Floor looks at Bob and says "Don;t do that".

Then the next day it happens again and you call the floor and the floor tells Bob .... don;t do that...
and the next day ......
etc.


So how are you supposed to control your table ... the floor is utterly failing to back you up in any meaningful way.

So on day 100 of this Bob does it again and you have finally had enough so you say "Why do we have to do this every day. Are you stupid or just don't give a damn about the other people at this table? Do you think the rules shoudln't apply to you because your special? I'm tired of this and I'm not going to stand for it anymore."

Now you get written up for arguing with the players ..... when we know that the person who should be written up is the floor that let it get to this point.

I would estimate from my experience (even as a player) that weak floors are responsible for a significant number of dealer/guest arguments.

So if you have a dealer who seems to be getting into a lot of arguments with guests well fine write them up, discipline them, terminate them ..... but if you have a dealer who otherwise hasn't been a problem and he has an argument with a guest .... maybe you should stop and investigate the issue before you swing your hammer.

That's not how I would have reacted.

I would say,

"If you all, and the guy who's chips you're taking, are alright with this then so am I."
"But I have to cover my butt and tell the floor what's going on, we'll see if he's alright with this."

The problem with verbal warnings is when its time for a write up there's nothing to refer to when the employee says " I was never warned" also were a small room and we know who our problematic customers are. This is also a standard that the floors are being held to as well so when I come in and hear that so and so floor didn't write up a dealer for a argument with a customer I can tell upper managment that the floor isn't coming up to standard.

As far as bob goes, the floor should have you're back. And I mean when he should be behind you and tell bob that anymore Lithuanian while in the hand he will have a 1 rd penalty and if he keeps causing the game to slow down or give my dealers problems he'll have to take the day off

An employee doesn't say "I was never warned not to burn and turn." The employee knows they aren;t supposed to burn and turn. Its not about a warning .... its about understanding the difference between a dealer who occasionally makes a mistake and a dealer who chronically makes a mistake.

If you call me in the office and ask me to sign a written "warning" for an early burn and turn ..... I'm not going to say "I wasn;t warned not to burn and turn early." I'm going to say "What the **** is wrong with you ..... I burned and turned early once in the past year......"

If you bring in a dealer who chronically burns and turns early you bring them in and you say "This is happening to much ... you need to pay more attention. This is a written warning sign here. " They don't need to be warned before they get a warning .....

You can make notes in the file every time it happens so that you can distinguish between chronic mistake makers and the guy you rarely makes the mistake. But you don;t need to make a formal disciplinary notice for every mistake.

If you hold you dealers to the standard of never making a mistake .... you will frustrate both yourself and your dealers.... And you will destroy morale because every dealer knows that they will make a mistake at some point andd know they feel there is no job security.

of course we know what should happen. But we also know that what happens isn't always what should happen. My point is that when you are assigning blame for that argument with the guest ...... stop .... talk to the dealer ...... look at the situation and consider that the real blame MAY belong with management" Not that it can't be the dealers fault .... just that sometimes it starts at the top.

Years ago I saw a dealer lose his job when he lost his temper with a dealer.... when I saw the dealer he had his shirt off and he was screaming at the player to come get some while a couple of floors held him back. Seems pretty outrageous ....... that dealer should lose his job ....

BUT.... that player was well known for riding dealers ...... really getting under their skin (for no reason) taunting them pushing their buttons. Most of us managed to keep our cool ..... BUT EVERYBODY knew what was going on. He did this all over town. So this ******* manages to finally get a dealer on a bad day to lose his cool and flip out .......

Well maybe the dealer should lose his job ..... but you know what ..... as far as I am concerned the people who should lose their jobs for this are the management employees who let it get to this point.....and most of the time that starts at the top with the manager.

Yeah... something like this. It needed to be handled, but stay calm and detached and professional. The floor needed to be told (though from everything else written about the place there's no reason to think the floor will respond in anything close to a reasonable fashion). Just make sure that happens before the chips leave the table.

Wonder if their friend would think it a jolly good joke to ask the cops be called? Let his friends spend a few hours in jail before bailing 'em out, and then drop the charges. Sounds just about as funny as stealing his chips.

You're creating an environment where dealers will try very hard to never call the floor and admit to any mistake. You nor the players will like the result if dealers quietly "fix" every error without calling you. "Oh... early burn+turn--I know how to fix this". "I mucked the tabled winning hand and tore down the board but there's a second player still with cards I didn't see--I can fix this." "I dropped the stub on the floor--I can fix this."

You believe the dealer was off base for reacting like the formal warning was the end of the world, but if you are actually planning to use these as an excuse to terminate people, then yeah, they have every reason to care greatly about it. It may actually be leading very directly to the end of their employment. Plus you apparently gave no notice that this would start happening--that's extremely unfriendly.

You can end up creating a risk/reward system where you make the dealers completely paranoid about making mistakes and cause them to slow down. One day I noticed a long-time dealer was going about one-third his normal pace and I asked what was wrong--answer: "I got written up for making a mistake, that's what happened, so I'm not taking any chances!" You may be cutting your hands dealt per hour, and therefore your revenue, by 5%. That seems a pretty steep price to pay.

Okay, I've gotten a little bit of sleep and am less fired up. Thanks for the responses.

Something like that is actually how I reacted at first. I said I needed to get the floor over there to let him know what was going on, and the floor would take it from there. All the stuff above is after they were giving me a hard time and insisting that it was all okay. They were telling me I didn't need to tell the floor anything, that I don't know what I'm doing, etc etc. Arguing with me about it while I'm trying to run hands in play. Lying to me and saying that the other dealer knew it was going on and was okay with it.

Also, Mr. Smug had been there earlier, sitting at his buddy's seat, and playing with his buddy's chips. Trying to insist that he be allowed to play over, and saying that it was okay he was sitting at this player's spot and messing with his chips, harassing me about asking him not to do any of that. Keep in mind this dude wasn't even in the game yet, and was distracting me from hands in play.

I had no way of knowing if he knew this person or not. And I've had people before try to sit at someone else's spot and "borrow" chips, when it turns out that player was not in any way shape or form okay with that happening.

And did I mention it was the end of a 64 hour week?

They had already stolen thousands of dollars from this stack before I arrived, and were giggling about it.

Calmed down a bit more now, I do realize I could have handled it better. This kind of phrasing is good to keep in my head for the future, thanks.

I suppose when they told me that stealing was okay and then started insulting me and throwing things at me, I determined the table was hostile and stopped giving a crap.

But just so we're clear, taking chips from an absent player's stack is not okay, right? I don't care if you're husband and wife, unless I get permission from all parties involved AND the floor, it ain't happening.

Of course it's not ok, because eventually you're going to get burned. Most likely, it would be in the exact situation you described. So what if they're friends, that doesn't mean the absent player is ok with loaning out 1k to his "buddies".

And, what's more likely, is the guy says "It's ok, he's my brother", then plays two pots and racks up the money of a guy he doesn't even know.

Is anyone in here a craps dealer?

After all these years I've decided to go ahead and join a craps class, was wondering if any dice dealers had any tricks/keys for the mathematical madness that craps is!

"Down behind the field aliens come to place bets." The order I was taught to handle the bets.

Know your 7s tables. Think of each win in terms of touchdowns. A win on a number with 6 units bet is a payout of 42.

16 for 1 is the same as 15 to 1. To pay something at 15:1, blackjack it and multiply by 10. So, for a $24 Yo add half the bet (blackjack pays 3:2 or 1.5:1) to make 36 and multiply by 10 to pay $360.

The most important thing is your hands. Cutting checks by feel and no thumb cutting! You have to have quick hands. Practice practice practice cutting checks.

Thanks! I've been in the industry for a while, the drop cutting can get difficult. I also deal roulette and people have told me that having roulette first before craps has help them but I just don't see how it can help cause shortcuts for roulette are much simpler.

Thanks for the info!