Tda:
55: Invalid Bet Declarations
If a player faces no bet and: A) declares “call”, it is a check; B) declares “raise”, the player must make at least a minimum bet. A player declaring “check” when facing a bet may call or fold, but cannot raise.

My questions to the tournament floor were much more fun today.

"Do we allow reverse implied blockers?"

"Can a player not in the hand request for the King to be turned upside down?"

TDA Rule 44 addresses out of turn action. If action doesn't change once it's backed up to the correct Player and re-returns to the OOT Player then the action is held. But in this case there's nothing to call .. However I don't think we should allow all actions either, so I'll kind of lean towards a Robert's phrase of holding the Player to passive action which limits the Player to a Check here since Folding is also against the Rules.

The issue can be penalized as The Floor sees fit. GL


PS .. it appeared Rule 55 covers this as shown above!

PSS .. Really both Rules apply since it was OOT initially then apply Rule 55 once it returns.

There was no OOT action.

Perfect.

This matches my gut on what my ruling would have been, but I didn't remember if there was a specific, clearly defined rule.

Thank you.

I understand where it comes from, which is why it's easy to anticipate and stop in its tracks, which is what I do, usually with a decent success rate.

I learned in another thread the TDA procedure for premature turn cards changed 2 years ago. I was confused for a minute because I've been dealing tournaments almost exclusively for the past 2 years, then a tiny bit proud because I realized I didn't know because I hadn't put out a premature turn card since the new rule.

I do need to get better about going through the TDA redline docs.

That is 100% true. You, me, and every dealer SHOULD go through the redline rules for more often. Absolutely true.

Unfortunately that involves effort. I will fully admit that I am lazy. Really lazy. Don't get me wrong, I will try my hardest to deal fast and clean, but when it comes to reading rulesets on my off time? **** that. I have better things to do.

The best and worst thing I ever was told/taught was that the rules exist for a reason. If a person understood the basic rules of poker and intuitively understood human nature and how people will try to take advantage of other players, you can automatically grasp 99.99% of the rules.

The simple rule is that the rules are there to protect players from other players and protect the integrityof the game. Full stop. So a person who understood the basic rules of poker and understood human nature would be able to immediately come up with a decent ruling a vast (97%+) percent of the time.

String bet rules are there to protect other players. The oversized chip rule is there to protect other players. Folding out of turn is there to protect other players.

As a result I have gotten very lazy. Really lazy. I don't need to study the rules if I can figure them out with basic poker common sense (which means 97%+ accuracy).

Don't get me wrong, it is a bad attitude, but it is also an easy trap to fall into.

Agree, Jim. I have a goal to spend time each week reading a rule or procedure to keep sharp.

Unfortunately, in reality, I get busy/lazy, and that happens when a situation comes up that I'm not sure about, and need to review.

I saw a hilarious hand today at $1/$3.

I had a player in seat 4 who was a very nice older gentleman, but the problem was that he was easily distracted. Whatever caught his fancy at the moment completely took over and poker was forgotten. He would be in a conversation and not pay attention to the action. Or he would see a highlight on TV and forget about poker. Or he would get lost in thought and not realize the action was on him.

He had to be reminded each and every time it was his turn to act. As a dealer of course it is annoying. It slows the game down and it requires you to work more. No one wants to babysit.

Other players were clearly annoyed. No lines had been crossed, but multiple players had commented about the speed of the game and reminded him it was his turn. One actually asked him if he had ADHD.

Tension was building. Obviously I don't want that so I will do my best to short circuit it.

Button is in seat one. That means the gentleman is UTG. As I deal the first card to each player I can see he is staring off into space. I continue to deal and as I give him the 2nd card I pause and tap the table in front of him rather hard and say "Action is on you." The whole time I finish the deal I am keeping an eye on him to see if he acknowledges he heard me.

He never looks at his cards and continues to stare into space.

So as I finish my deal I literally pound the table in front of him and say "Sir, it is your turn to act." He wakes up from his daze with a look of panic on his face for a brief second. He quickly recovers and tells me (rather forcefully) that he knows it is his turn and he is just thinking.

Now I have been paying attention to him the whole time. I know he was going to be a problem so I focused on him. I absolutely 100% am sure he hasn't even touched his cards. His brief look of panic confirmed that.

So he pauses for a few seconds, collects his cards and without looking at them puts them under a chip. He tilts his head a few times like he is thinking then grabs $15 and tosses it in as a bet.

A bunch of folds then both the cutoff and BB call.

As I bring in the bets and start to deal the flop I see him look at his cards for the first time. He literally scowls. It is clear his cards suck.

I put out a flop of 9h 4h 2c. His demeanor quickly changes. BB checks and he bets $30 into a ~$46 pot. The Cutoff thinks for a bit and raises to $90. BB folds. The gentleman pauses for a bit clearly thinking. I think he is deciding between calling and shoving, but that is just my read.

He calls the $90.

The turn is the 3s.

Gentleman thinks for a bit and checks. Cutoff thinks for a very long time and also checks.

I deal the 4c for the river.

Gentleman thinks for a very long time, long enough that I am wondering if he isn't engaged in the hand. Just as I start to speak up he says that he is all in. He pushes about $240 forward.

Cutoff has him barely covered and goes into a deep tank. He is thinking for a really long time. It gets to the point where I think it is ridiculous. I start to wish a dealer could call clock.

The older gentleman starts to talk. He mentions how everyone is getting mad at him for playing slow when the Cutoff has taken far longer. This causes the Cutoff to speak up and says he has a really tough decision. He actually turns up his cards and has A9.

Mentally, I agree that he has a tough call. Especially not knowing that UTG hadn't looked at his cards before raising. It is quite possible that UTG has a missed flush draw or a weaker 9. He also has overpairs in his range. Given just the board and the action, I think it is a losing call more often than not, but the important question is if it loses enough to account for the $225 overlay that is already in the pot. It is close.

UTG, sees the A9 and pauses and then starts talking trash. He asks why the guy is even thinking. How can he fold? He then changes tracks and starts analyzing his own range. He mentions that he could have overpairs or possibly a flush draw. The more he talks, the more it is clear to me that he is strong. I am pretty sure I fold A9 there and don't even think twice about it. UTG is very strong. At minimum he has a 4. Probably better.

This sends the Cutoff further into the tank. He doesn't move or say anything for at least two minutes.

Finally another player calls clock. It takes me second to get a floor over and we go through the usual and the floor tells the cutoff that he has 1 minute to make a decision after which his hand will be automatically declared dead. He will be given a 15 second countdown.

The Cutoff waits until the floor starts the 15 second countdown and sighs and then pushes out a stack of chips.

UTG turns over 94 offsuit. Flopped two pair and rivered a full house.

I count his chips and then collect the amount from the cutoff. As I am doing so, he tosses two white chips to me as a tip. When I push the pot I say in a quiet voice while looking him in the eye: "Not bad for a blind bet." He immediately smiles. Then after a second winks at me and tosses me two red chips.

A meaningless hand at a low limit table, but one of thise hands that make an evening interesting and slightly entertaining.

I love watching hands like that. Anything different is good.

Thinking back, I don't know if I've ever seen someone tank, show their cards to try and get a read, then make the right decision. I'm sure it's happened, but I can only remember the times when they remained the only person at the table who didn't know what the other guy had.

That was a very funny hand, and an interesting story, but I'm afraid it likely will lead to this guy continuing to slow down the game, and he seems like a terrible person as well.

If he had instead lost his entire stack, it would have been much better karma, and he might have learned his lesson to pay better attention and quit slowing down the game so much.
The poker gods should have brought an ace on the river.

Thanks for the good story. Reminds me of the "good old days" of this thread where we swapped them regularly.

Yep. As a dealer I absolutely love stupid hands like that. One of the things I like about dealing is that dealers look at the game different than players. It just provides a different perspective and an alert dealer will see things that an alert player will not. Maybe it is that as a dealer I am not emotionally invested in the hand, I don't know, but I feel the different view helps me as a player as well.

As for showing cards, I never thought about it, but you are right. It does seem that most players who show cards end up making bad decisions. I think through reason is that most people don't understand WHY they are showing cards. They are just showing for sympathy. They know they have a tough decision so they want others to know it. So they are going to call anyway and just want sympathy.

There is an art to showing cards.

The real reason the show them is to get a reaction from your opponent. Usually, if that reaction happens, it happens right away. On rarer occasions the reaction will take longer. The opponent might start talking or might show one of the classic physical tells like relaxing or such.

In this case, the guy who showed his cards got exactly what he wanted. His opponent started talking and made it quite clear he was probably strong. Like I said, my read was that I fold A9 and don't give it a second thought. This guy wasn't looking for a read though, he was looking for sympathy. He tortured himself for a while and then called despite it being an "obvious" fold.

Terrible person? No. Annoying person to play with? 100% absolutely.

I would say everyone at the table would have said he was a really nice guy. He was just easily distracted and always apologetic about it (until this hand where it was clear he was going to try a different tact).

If anything, I just think this shows that most people (especially at low limits) are not there to play poker. They are there to have a good time and socialize. Their priorities are not necessarily professional (or even good) players priorities. It sucks when they slow down the game, but players like that are why the game is still so profitable.

I say this as much as myself as to you. One of my biggest leaks as a player is that I have a tendency to play too many pots against really slow players (thinking I can outplay them and bust them).

I didn't mean he was a terrible person because he plays slowly. It was because he barked at you (while lying), and then trash talked the other player. There is no excuse for either of those things.

He didn't really bark at me. Just imagine someone who has been told 45 times in a row that the action is on him and is increasingly embarrassed over it. He finally decides to pretend he isn't the idiot and is in control (and got lucky).

Put another way, i was not offended in the slightest at him "barking" at me. I just felt like he was making it clear to everyone that be was on top of everything (even if he wasn't).

As for the trash talk. I don't think it was anything out of the ordinary. Especially since the other player showed his cards. If anything, his speaking gave away his hand to anyone paying attention.

I genuinely think you are reading too much into this. He was really a nice older gentleman who was friendly with everyone. He was just annoying to everyone who wanted the game to move faster.

Sounds to me like in the spur of the moment he pulled an angle and used you as a prop in doing so.

I will concede that it was a very slight angle and according to you a transparent one at that. But an angle that used you nonetheless.

That would bug me more than the rudeness, actually. People are rude to me all the time, but only a couple of times have I been used to help an angle and that always felt shitty.

Raising UTG without looking at cards is an angle now?

While I will agree he used my gesture to indicate that it was his turn as a show of strength, how is that an angle? He didn't even know what his cards were?

I think the term angle is too often overused nowadays. What he did was take advantage of a situation that becomes available to him. The thing is, anyone who was watching him closely would have instantly known what happened. Anyone could have 3 bet him pre-flop and stole his blind raise.

Flop Q86

3 players get into a raising war

A jams
B rejams
C tanks, eventually says “ok I’m laying down top and bottom” and mucks

A shows KQ
B shows QQ

Me: Floor on 34, fouled deck!