Hi, I was playing 10/20 game in public, regulated casino with some crazy recs. The situation:
I'm CO and BTN announced raise to $500 and put chips behind the line before cards were dealt. It is folded to me and I decided to limp with KK. Then button didn't change his action - still had $500 as a raise. Then SB and BB both called and next I announced raise to $1000. Then button decided that he changed his mind and took back $480 declaring that his action was only calling my limp. I asked dealer and floor what the f is going on, and they responded that he has a right to do so.
Does it really work like that guys? I was really pissed of, because if I would know that he can do it, I would just call his $500 pre.
I moved this to the forum that handles rules and ettiquette, as you had it in the strategy forum.
Did SB and BB put in $500? If so, it's a pretty clear "action offered and accepted" situation, and way too late for him to argue his announced raise wasn't binding, imo.
LOL, no, that's not how life works. I guess in this room next time you bet the river as a bluff and get called, ask for a do-over and that you actually want to check.
In most rooms, action out of turn is binding if the action does not change. Your initial limp did not change the action, therefore the raise stands. There is no reason why he should be allowed to take it back due to what happened after his raise became valid. If this is truly a "regulated" room then either the dealer and floor are incompetent, are misunderstandings the order of events, are favoring a reg, or some combination of the three.
Irrelevant to this situation but I used to work in a room where his $500 would stay in the pot no matter what, even if you changed the action by initially raising. They typically followed the more traditional action out turn rule I referenced, but if the out of turn action was intentional (aka blatantly putting in your OOT raise before cards are dealt), there was nothing that could happen that would allow them to take it back.
The only thing I can imagine is they ruled that since the statement came before the cards were dealt, it was not considered binding. Therefore he had never acted, and he was basically skipped and decided to call the $20 then fold. Why he didn't try to fold and take back the whole $500 I don't know.
I could see ruling that he can take it back if he said it when action first came around to him but after two calls of $500 and a raise to $1000? That seems terrible to me. Once he leaves the $500 out and says nothing as everyone acts on that bet he should be stuck.
Tell the full story in one go or don't tell it at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuayThai
if I would know that he can do it, I would just call his $500 pre.
How would that have helped in a room that allows BTN to pull back his bet. You haven't told us what it is about your raise that allowed for the special courtesy.
The only logic I see here is if the button put out a $500 oversized chip and somehow his preflop verbal wasn't binding and then the small blind, thinking he is calling, puts out $500 and that is the action that button can fold to. It's pretty strained to me.
if I would know that he can do it, I would just call his $500 pre.
You can't call a bet of 500 that hasn't been made yet. The action is on you and if you raise, he can fold since the action changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuayThai
I decided to limp with KK. Then button didn't change his action - still had $500 as a raise.
I would need to know exactly how this transpired. Did he just sit there, with his money behind the line, and watched the SB and BB put out 500? Or did the dealer announce his raise of 500 when it was on him? If the dealer announced it and he was allowed to take it back it's a horrible ruling obviously but if the button just sat there while the SB and BB put out 500, then he didn't act yet, which is the only reason he should be allowed to take it back.
You can't call a bet of 500 that hasn't been made yet. The action is on you and if you raise, he can fold since the action changed.
If his blind raise is treated as a "sleeper" straddle he might be allowed to change his action unless it's folded to him. In that case he has all his options after hero called.
Did SB/BB actually put $500 in the pot when they called?
If the room has a strict betting line then putting the chips behind the line wouldn't count. Of course this rule is terrible, but some rooms use it still we hear.
But he then watched 3 other people act out of turn and didn't protect his action. I guess I would kill his hand then, maybe make him limp first if I could do it with a straight face.
1) If 'announced' as a Raise, then you have to lean on local application of 'dark' bets. Binding with no change in action or other?
1A) Yes, we could have a Betting Line angle here, but then the B would've had to 'act' by putting chips out past this the first time around, otherwise SB/BB/OP are all acting out of turn with B not stopping them.
2) What did the Player and/or Dealer do or say when action 'passed' by the Dealer?
3) The only type of Poker Rule(s) I can think of here is the combination of both a 'Sleeper' and 'Mississippi' Straddle. Sleeper Straddles are only in effect if action doesn't change when action gets to the Player, which in this case it's just a Button Straddle to most of us here. But if you add in the 'ultimate last action' aspect of some MS Straddles then that would open the door up for B to be off the hook.
The 'problem' with this is that the Dealer should've announced that it was the SB who had 'raised' (actually opened)
The other issue is that OP thinks that B "didn't change their action" .. again, we need some help from the Dealer here.
A) What a huge advantage a Player has by setting the Open amount and then being able to back out once they see what the others have done before action is on them.
B) Can't imagine that this was the first time that this happened during the session .. and for 25x?
C) Yes, under the 99% Rule of Poker, this is really messed up to the normal and is a spot where Gaming could get involved .. unless it really is a local Rule. GL
