If the Rio wants to make it right they have the tapes. I am thinking there is no one there with the balls to stand up and say "We made a mistake". Kinda like a bad baseball call.

I feel like the only incentive the Rio would respond to is financial since they obviously have no commitment to running a poker room correctly out of any sense of propriety, and unfortunately it seems like with the WSOP going on they're raking in enough money hand over fist that there's no way to have enough of an impact that they would care or even notice.

edit: I mean, I guess the best thing anyone could do is get the word out on twitter among all the big name poker pros (looks like this is happening already) and for someone to write a letter to their director of poker operations or whatever equivalent position and force him to come out in writing as saying "Yes, we don't give a **** about making rulings in the interest of fairness at cash games and we train our floormen accordingly"

Typically, yes, you are wrong. This is more strictly enforced in tourneys, where exposed cards can affect the action to the detriment of the whole field (as opposed to cash games, where it only affects people in the hand), but it isn't supposed to result in a dead hand. Reading through various rulesets, there are very few justifications for killing a hand (an illegal hand like having a joker or incorrect number of cards is the only one off the top of my head).

Having said all that, Floor clearly ignore Rule #1 of Decision Making from Robert's Rules
Those saying the guy deserved what he got are total asshats. The guy was just throwing a bit of levity to it, feigning frustration. His intention was clearly to fold.

If I'm Op or any other player, I'm loudly racking up and leaving myself. "Maybe they know how to run a ****ing game at the Bellagio!"

Holy crap. This is a horrendous ruling.

Can you say "fold" and then "just kidding: all-in!" and let the all-in stand? Of course you can't. Throwing cards forward with action to come is a fold. He can't go all-in at this point. It's against the rules.

Shame on the table full of angle-shooters, ganging up to mug someone. It'd be more honest if they held him down and took turns punching him in the face. Welcome to America! Ugh.

Absolutely agree. Good post.

Also, this.

The worst part is that it's not even technically correct. It's 100% wrong.

Here's a rule of thumb I use when talking with dealers about the nuance of the rules and procedures: assume they don't know what they're talking about. So far, this rule has saved me a lot of headache.

Right. Chips cross the line = bet. Cards cross the line = fold. Face up/down doesn't matter if there is still action left.

Obviously a bad ruling, but it's a pretty bad idea to ever say "all in" as a joke at the table. I'm always joking around at the table, but I don't say all in as a joke even when I'm not in a pot, because someone with headphones on might think the player they are against in the hand said it or something along those lines.

Obviously this is a completely different scenario, and if the guy had spoken English better and insisted that the other players and the dealer/floor acknowledge that his clear intent had been to fold before he made the all in joke I can't imagine the ruling would have stood against him.

Could you elaborate?

In my local casino I've been told by three different people that when a card touches the muck at all, even if it isn't your fault, it's ruled dead.
For example in a tournament I was told that if you don't touch your cards after they are dealt, and leave them resting on the line until it's your turn, and someone folds before you, and one of their cards touches yours, your hand is apparently ruled dead. The same if there is a mucked card just inside the line, and you accidentally slide your card out to touch it. Is that wrong then?

If it's the rules at that casino, then no, it's not wrong.

People who understand poker don't write rules like this. It's not black & white, more a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing.

there certainly seems to be a lot of confusion about what constitutes a "dead hand"

True. And probably wasnt considered by the floor.

IMO if the hand is slid into the center of the table, face up after all the action is finished, it should be live and cards speak, even if they touch the muck. If this happens with pending action, it is a muck and any conversation is immaterial.

Exactly.

For that matter, get your heads out of your asses and recognize the context, people. Ugh. So awful.

Out of pure decency and respect for the game, I would not have accepted a single cent from the Asian guy if I had J9. That is an absurd ruling

Doyle has said this refers to being "8 miles out and 6 feet under"

How they used to ban you from a casino in Vegas back in the mob days

This is the common mantra I hear repeated over and over and I've always thought that if you muck your hand it's dead. There's so much conflicting info out there, or maybe I'm just misinterpreting it?

There's the hand galfond mucked where I think he was chopping with hellmuth on hsp. There's that hand that french woman had against I think mercier at wsop where she said she had aces, but the dealer put her hand into the muck. I've always been told that if your hand is exposed and it's 3+ handed that it's dead.

+1 If I had been at that table, I would have advised him to do so (not that he would necessarily have understood if his English wasn't that good) and would even have gone as far as to run interference for him if required.

I once saw a player who had called AI on the river pick up his remaining chips and run out of the Mirage after the betting player tabled an obviously superior hand. The floor assured the "winning" player that the other guy would be banned from the Mirage, but no action was taken to make the "winning" player whole. So it's definitely doable if you don't mind the ban.

not so bizare to my point of view you paranoid buddy

Wow live poker is so ridiculous. I'm glad I decided to stop playing live with everything coming out lately.

This is the problem with poker rules, there isn't a whole lot of consistency.
As I said earlier, I have been involved in writing many rulebooks and columns about rules. And I have seen rules written many ways about dead hands.
Some places do have a rule that makes the muck a magical sphere of deadness. Those rooms that have them should be scolded by the rules police. Unfortunately that squad doesnt exist.
Over the years rules have gotten better with the help of people like Matt Savage and the TDA. Poker rooom managers would be wise to adopt the rules that are being used by the bigger rooms and tournaments. There are too many local interpretations of the rules. It's no wonder players get confused.

This ruling really does boil my blood. I have heard 100's of bad rulings over the years, and none has bothered me as much as this one. The rio should do everything they can to find this guy and pay him back his $7k.

Hypothetical situation: heads-up on the river, player A bets a moderately strong hand. Player B raises all-in. A is unsure if B has hit the nuts or is just trying to represent them. A goes into the tank, and then turns his cards face up to see if B will react. Getting no help, A shrugs and pushes his cards, still face up, towards the dealer, and releases them. Before the dealer has picked them up, B says "gotcha" and shows the bluff. Player A immediately says "I call" and reaches out to pull his cards back. What is the binding action here?

B is an idiot.

Action and intent were to fold, so I would rule it a fold.

Yes, you would. But I think he's pointing out the huge amount of room for angle shooting and idiocy in the rule at the Rio as described in this thread.

I don't get it. The player announced all in and was surprised when the floor made him put his chips all in? I ****ing hate people who say like "All out" or they fold and say "all in" or like they fold preflop and in the middle of the hand on the turn when the dealer is about to do the last card they say all in and think it's so funny. hopefully less people do this now. guy got what he deserved. plus those kind of players enjoy to lose their money anyways. He probably would have lost over 7k in that span of time playing bacarrat anyway so what does it honestly matter? yeah he might have got screwed but what did he honestly expect?

So you have a problem when people try to have a bit of fun and add levity? Player clearly intended to fold, and any player bothering to half pay attention wouldn't be confused by the action.

I don't understand any negative feelings ITT towards this Asian guy! Believe it or not... a very large portion of the poker playing population PLAYS FOR FUN! If you grinders/pros take the fun out of the game... guess what happens? (Hint: all you'll play against are grinders/pros) Shame on the angle shooting J9 scum, shame on the Rio's floors, and shame on the Rio.

And for those who replied ITT in favor of this ruling... re-read the OP and understand that Asian guy threw his hand away and then joked around about how bad his hand was! Effing ridiculous!

I'm more upset with the angle shooter who tried to take advantage of the 4-2 guy. The ruling wouldn't even have had to occur if you didn't have small dick pricks like this guy in the game.

And if I were the floor, the first action is the only action that counts, and that's a FOLD on the muck.