This is a hand I saw today and I wanted thoughts and opinions on it.

to the river the board is Ac 4c 3d 5s 2c. The villain bets the river and the hero calls. The villain declares "I have a boat", the hero mucks and the villain tables 3h 3s to play the wheel on the board. Hero claims the villain's angle shot got him to muck 6c 8c for a flush. Floor is called and villain is awarded the pot because the hero's card, although discernible from muck have touched the muck. The villain was then warned not to make false declarations again.

Thoughts on this ruling and the villain's "penalty"?

Horrid. He misrepresented his hand. If hero's cards are retrievable, I'd pull them out and make them live. If not, I'd chop the pot since V is playing the board. The last thing I'd do is give V the entire pot.

Actually, this one is a bit tricky. The player that mucked is a dope bec no FH is possible. The player that over-declared may have been so excited that he made an honest mistake. Just giving the benefit of the doubt on that. At some point players that muck in situations like this have to accept their own mistakes.

I completely agree that players who muck should be held accountable either A) when villain declares his hand correctly and they muck the winner or B) villain says nothing and tables his hand and they misread the hand and muck the winner. What makes this complicated is the villain misrepresenting his hand, and not in a way that can be interpreted differently.

I think the villain get's more leeway if he says something along the lines of "nuts" or "I've got the winner" as opposed to identifying his hand as a full house. There certainly needs to be rules in place to protect players from angle shots whether or not intentional.

In general I believe that villain's misrepresenting hands to induce mucks should almost always be split pots but I think in this case it 100% should be a split pot because the villain is playing the board.

Villain did over declare his hand causing his opponent to muck.
I would be OK with villain's hand being declared dead and pushing the pot to the player with no cards.

But what kind of idiot mucks without seeing the hand that his opponent claims to have?

And even more so when villain claims to have a hand that's not possible to have?

I'm glad I can call the floor and have him make the decision on things like this.

Overdeclaring your hand to make your opponent muck is a specific crime with a specific penalty.

If you are referring to RRoP, the penalty is the opposite of specific.

I don't think villain was intentionally trying to over declare his hand as much as he was probably just goofing around because anyone can see that it's impossible to have a full house without the board being paired. He turned a set and he wanted hero to know that he had a set. Players say stupid things all the time. Who knows, maybe he did misread it.

As much as I don't like to see anyone claiming to have a hand that they don't have, I do feel that at some point, you have to take responsibility for your actions, too.

If I were the Floor, I would give villain a warning; actually, I don't even like to use the term "warning" because how do we know for certain that villain didn't misread the board? Hero misread it, right? I would award villain the pot and explain to him, that, although he's getting the pot this time (because it's probably the first time he's been pointed out for this---just giving him the benefit of the doubt) if this ever comes up again, we will over-ride our muck rule policy and retrieve the players hand from the muck. That way, whether villain was angle shooting or just goofing around, he'll know that the Floor isn't going to tolerate either of it and he'll suffer the ramifications for it.

So first angle shoot is free then?

No.

But the first time we are giving him the benefit of the doubt, because, just like you, maybe he also misread the board.

I'd warn the villian about misdeclaring his hand, and warn the hero about the importance of seeing an opponents hand before mucking. Then i'd retrieve heros hand since they are identifiable and having touched the muck doesnt matter, and award pot to best hand, which appears to be heros flush.

IMO, it is usually impossible to actually dicern the intent of someone who misdeclares their hand. Some angle shooters can act really innocent and have you believing they honestly misread their hand. But if you rule in his favor, he's freerolling. Yes, the player made a mistake by mucking, but the other player made the first mistake by misdeclaring. So I would say never let the first mistake win a pot he shouldnt. Let him be the one to "learn the lesson" rather than reward his mistake by giving him the pot.

But in this particular case, since the cards can be retrieved, the damage is easily undone and best hand can win.

Don't EVER muck your hand until someone shows a winner. Cards play. That would keep this from happening.

Villain is either a brilliant jerk or an idiot nowhere near Hero's level.

Doesn't claiming to have a hand that's not possible to have make a difference?
He has to be joking around doesn't he?

Does the moron who claims he can beat the straight on board, yet mucked, deserve the pot?

I guess maybe he does. Like I said, glad the floor has to make these decisions, not me.

If I had to rule here I would be tempted to split the pot.
Idiot who folded a flush doesn't deserve the whole pot even if his hand is retrievable.

Everyone should remember one rule. Cards play!!! I don't muck anything(even a 10 high bluff) without seeing the opponents cards.

Especially when someone claims to have a hand that's not possible to have.

At the very least the floor should have recognized the wheel on the board and let the mucking player play the board and split the pot.

In this case I think you absolutely have to rule split pot. Having watched the hand I honestly believe that the villain misread the board and most likely thought the 5 on the turn to be another 4 which would've given him a boat and in general didn't seem like a guy who would pull that angle. Although the hero also makes a glaring error by not realizing the board isn't paired I don't think that error is worth losing the entire pot over.

The thing that gets me about this is that the villain CANNOT BEAT THE BOARD. Therefore no matter what 2 cards the hero has the worst case scenario for him is a chop. For instance let's pretend that villain has a 7-high flush says "full house" and hero folds and claims to have 8-high flush. In that case the villain's hand beats the board and hero can't prove that his hand was better.

Maybe he was shooting the angle.
Didn't have the flush and figured he was free-rolling for for the whole pot and was sure he would get half by playing the board.

Well, I don't think it's right to retrieve Hero's hand if they have a rule that states if your hand hits the muck it's dead. Although, after thinking about it a little more, I think splitting the pot is the fair way to go. Both players ****ed up, I don't agree that "who ****ed up first" should suffer greater than the other one; chop the pot and tell villain to knock it off with his shenanigans or else, and tell Hero, uh, actually I'm not explaining anything to Hero if I'm the Floor; don't think it's my place to. Hero needs to take this as a good lesson learned for himself because to be quite honest, Hero's fold on the end should never happen again.

Must protect your hand. It's an angle but hold onto your cards until you are sure you are beat.

Recently it came to showdown for about 40 bucks with 3 people and 2 auto mucked after the 3rd called their bluffs, the 3rd showed 23 off and won with 3 high.

And why are you sharing this with us here?

"Nuts" or "i've got the winner" is not a declaration of your hand. Might be an angleshot but there's no rule against it. Especially "nuts" which isn't a word you find in any rule and might refer to something you like to snack.

Irrelevant. The over declared hand caused there other player to muck.