Mental midgets.. probably need all the information they can get. But won’t know what to do w the information once they get it.

A check is not an aggressive action.

I believe I will stick with RC and TDA and continue using the term aggression. Note that there are plenty of room whose actual rule is 'last aggressive action' and do not limit it to only on the river. Thus for rooms where 'aggression can cross streets', your bastardization of the wording does not work.

Just watched Brad Owen's latest vlog playing 100/200 (or was it 50/100?) with Phil Ivey, etc. In it, Brad has K3s making top pair. On the river, Brad calls Alan Keating's bet and waits. And waits. And waits for Alan to show his complete air bluff. OK, so maybe it was only 10 seconds. Seems like the exact situation as OP, right? Except for the stakes, the players, also the location (S4Y studios), and the fact that Brad didn't have the nuts and was essentially bluff catching (successfully I might add), seems like the same to me.

I would also add that Brad frequently has stated in his vlog about not making players show if they hesitate at all. Not this time, Brad.

Not the same at all, Brad is obv in over his head and timid in the hand, he didn't have the nuts, and he did show after his villain didn't instead of "forcing" him to show.

I’m sure if keating said “you’re good” he would have tabled immediately.

OK, fair enough. However, then you have to explain why, when it's checked around on the river, the first person to check shows first.

Your definition doesn't explain it, mine does.

And yes, I've played in rooms where, when checked on the river, the last man shows first. Those rooms, however, have either shut down, or changed the rule ... at least around N. CA.

Nothing to explain, it is covered in the rule. Browser posted the rule from RRoP (iirc, TDA is similar),

"If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay."

So if no aggressive action on the final betting round, whoever acted first (or in you language checked first) shows first. But if there is aggressive action on that street, aggressor shows first. The rule covers both situations.

BTW, Checking means Checking your option. The option is to bet or initiate action. Checking does not initiate anything. It is literally the opposite...it is 'let the next guy do what he wants.'

Checking definitely doesn't initiate action. Remember what a 'raise' of less then the min raise amount is called...action only. Action implies $ going into the pot. So no, your wording doesn't explain it either. But the RRoP (complete rule) does explain final street with and w/o action.

I suppose many people need it spelled out like that. Personally, I maintain that checking is an action and prefer the economy of a single statement covering all possibilities.

Still, if there are fewer arguments using the word aggressive and using a second sentence to cover the checks, I'm OK with that. Just seems excessively verbose.

Never heard of such a thing.

We used to do last aggressive action on previous street(s).

It does amaze me that some folks still have held onto the 'last aggressor' no matter the street as a first to show. I think some guys bring it up 'conveniently' when they don't want to show air.

As with all things, room rules apply. The standard in most poker markets is that if the River is checked through then the 'most out of position' Player shows first. So you start with the Blinds and work your way to the Button.

As far as the Brad/Keating spot. I'd have to watch the vlog again, but Brad was pausing the videos quite often while he talked .. so not sure if he did that in this particular spot. Either way, I can understand Brad not wanting to show such a weak holding that he called a c/r with had Keaton spiked trips on the River. It also goes down to the other Players seeing this as well. But you also have to consider what we've talked about before .. don't make the crazy Players show their cards if you think you might have a winner.

On top of that, he was just 'seat filling' until the stream ended, so he already knew that it would be a short session. And although poker players do have long memories, protecting your game play probably wasn't important at the time since he may never play with Ivey or Keating ever again. GL

That's normal.

Have you ever heard of this?

Normal in California isn't necessarily normal elsewhere. Variations are going to happen.

But when it comes to your stories, they invariably happen at nameless casinos. Curious!

Last man what? That's the most generalized subjective broadest term I've ever heard. Did you mean 3rd man walking then?

Curious you ignore the times others have confirmed my position in some rooms. Still, I neither want, nor need validation from you.

If you disagree, make your case. Failing that, stop the snide remarks and attacks.

Can you clarify what you meant by "last man". Are you saying last aggressive action from a prior street? Or are you saying that if final street is checked around, the latest position (say button) shows first?

There are plenty of rooms that use last aggression regardless of street. But I (and apparently at least couple others) never heard of River is check down so last to act shows first. (That is how some are interpreting your "last man shows first".

This. And I repeat, the last time I saw this was 5+ years ago. A room in Monterey, one in Folsom and one in Sacramento. All were small rooms that had about 3 tables. I used to travel a lot.

[Asked to clarify between two extremely different options] This.

Jay, I sympathize because I’ve posted on this forum before about normal California procedures and been called crazy. However I think that you might play in norcal because the rulings that you find normal are not typical for socal casinos. In socal, we go by last aggressor on river, or by worst position if it’s checked on the river. Never heard of the “last to initiate action” variation.

Yea, N. CA. I played in S. CA in the 70s & 80s, but moved north about 87/88.

And if the hand was checked around after the draw, the first to act showed first.

The thing that kinda bugs me is that CA/WA/OR/NV has had legal poker for +-100 years and now the people in places that have had legal poker for 10-20 years are suddenly the "experts" and their way is the only "right" way. The arrogance is astounding.

sorry

This???

It is A or B? and you answer "This". That is a non-answer. Is it A or B?

A = Last Aggressor regardless of which street aggression occurred

B = River is checked down so last position (which would be button if he has cards) shows first?


Note if/when you answer above, I might have a follow up.
==================
Intervening it appears you clarified to be B. If river is checked around, latest position (button if he has cards) shows first. Followups...

1. Is this actualy "rule" or just practice?
-I know that if I am last to act and river is checked around, I have a weak hand I don't expect to win and I am not bluffing with it, but I will frequently just flip over rather than actually checking. This is not our local rule but many folks do it this way.

2. Assume SB, BB, HJ and Btn have hands on river, it is checked around so per your (old, not current) rules, Btn shows first. Who shows (or discards) next? IOW, does it continue in reverse action order or does it go to the SB next?

3. This rule seems so far from anywhere else (I know CA is often weird and NoCal is weirder), can anyone else confirm this was the norm rule in NoCal (say) 8 years ago (or more)? Or is (we all do this) JK, misremembering?

The only way this maybe makes sense is if the show order goes reverse action the whole way

Whenever I have the nuts and all action is complete on the river, I verbally announce my hand immediately because it's faster than the action of flipping my hand over. (I do the same thing when it's all in pre and I have aces.) I do it because I wish that everyone else did. lol