Is this bad etiquette or fair play? - force opponent to show first - Page 3 - Poker Card Room

Not identical to the OP post, but related. A few weeks ago a guy who I know tends to bluff a lot, shoves all in on a very dry board. I called with AJ, but no pair, just A high. The villain says "Good call, it's yours" but doesn't toss in his cards or show them. Is his declaration that I've won the hand binding? I think he might have bottom pair and is hoping I'll show something like what I've got, A high. I think he's angle shooting. Opinions?

with ace high i'd make him show or muck
if he said "king high" i'd show my ace high unless it's not reciprocated when the situation is reversed.

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07-31-2019 , 01:14 PM

#52

MJ88

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,994

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bats

In most rooms this is not binding (and shouldn't be, IMO).
Especially given your hand, I would simply wait or ask the guy to either show or muck.

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07-31-2019 , 04:01 PM

#53

Bats

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 219

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ88

In most rooms this is not binding (and shouldn't be, IMO).
Especially given your hand, I would simply wait or ask the guy to either show or muck.

That's what I'll do in the future. I turned over my AJ and the villain looks at my cards, looks at the board, sees I don't even have a pair, looks back at his cards, then says "I can't beat you" and tosses his cards into the muck. That's when it hit me that this guy is an angle-shooting sob. Another lesson learned.

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08-01-2019 , 12:24 AM

#54

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bats

Don't understand why you think the guy was angle shooting. He was bluffing with nothing, but was surprised you made a good call with no more than ace high. If he had turned over a better hand than you, then it would have been sketchy.

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08-01-2019 , 04:15 AM

#55

Lord_Crispen

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,205

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

But also something you shouldn't be surprised to see. Most people that are bluffing can be bluffing with the best hand in some cases. It's not uncommon for someone to say "nice call" and then realize after the fact that you called with worse and then table their winning pair or whatever. Often they're not trying to angle, but it certainly feels bad or slow rollish when someone says nice call but still has you beat. The trick is to not let it bother you. At least your read was right "He was weak" lol.

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08-01-2019 , 08:33 AM

#56

answer20

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On a similar note .. I've (probably too) often said 'chop it up' on the River when I assumed wrongly that my opponent would 'never' call/bet me with an inferior hand. It certainly can be seen as a jab when they meekly muck. GL

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08-01-2019 , 10:03 AM

#57

dinesh

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Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4,411

Yeah, I used to do that occasionally too. I finally just realized it never helped and sometimes hurt, so I don't do it any more.

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08-01-2019 , 10:55 PM

#58

albedoa

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,392

One of my more memorable hands involved a perhaps overly ambitious squeeze from the $1/2 blinds with baby hearts only to get a call from the original overcaller, so I had to rely on my backup plan of binking runner-runner hearts on a board that also showed broadway.

I overbet jam the river, and my opponent relievingly goes, "Call, we're choppin!"

Poor guy didn't know what hit him.

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08-10-2019 , 03:42 PM

#59

18000rpm

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,392

Say "Show or muck"

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08-14-2019 , 02:33 PM

#60

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

This thread is tilting, some ppl at the table and here saying it's bad etiquette? Get outta here. It's OP's right to see. Now, if that's tapping the glass is another issue, but that has nothing to do with manners.

That being said, personally, if the aggrodonk is being insistent trying to not show, I'd just table my hand so as not to slow the game and tilt him.

Still, it's for OP to decide if the info is worth the hassle.

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08-14-2019 , 04:25 PM

#61

Lord_Crispen

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,205

Just because you don't personally believe in etiquette doesn't mean it's not.

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08-14-2019 , 05:52 PM

#62

albedoa

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,392

Is it the implication that nothing that is within your rights is bad etiquette? Why even use different words, let alone state the same idea twice.

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08-14-2019 , 08:32 PM

#63

chillrob

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I think many people including the OP, don't know what etiquette means.
Basically good etiquette is behaving in the way that is least likely to make others upset with your behavior.

Poor etiquette is anything else. This not imply that such behavior is unfair, strategically incorrect, or immoral.

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08-14-2019 , 09:11 PM

#64

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Really? Say I'm very upset it looks like you're gonna beat me in a big pot, so I tell you HU "hey, fold man, or I'm gonna get real upset!". Hahaha.

That donk can't unilaterally determine what's etiquette, esp when Hero paid good money to see his cards...What do you think the action CALL means? "Maybe I can call, maybe not, depending on your mood"? Am I the only one taking crazy pills? What a puzzling discussion.

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08-14-2019 , 09:18 PM

#65

chillrob

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You are correct that the donk can't unilaterally decide what is considered poor etiquette. The other poker players in this thread mutually can.

It has nothing to do with paying money to see the cards. Which in fact has not been done anyway. Money has been paid to retain the right to win the pot. Many people consider the right to win the pot to be the only important thing here. Others consider eking out every last scrap of data about the opponent's range to be nearly as important. It is well within the rules to stall the game, and personally I would blame the donk more than the OP for the delay.

But that still doesn't make it good etiquette.

Last edited by chillrob; 08-14-2019 at 09:23 PM.

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08-14-2019 , 09:21 PM

#66

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

You are correct that the donk can't unilaterally decide what is considered poor etiquette. The other poker players in this thread can.

They can give their opinions but I never thought that by going by the rules would incur the wrath of the manners police. I understand the tapping glass part, but disagree with the etiquette part.

Regarding your edited addition, why not blame donk for stalling game AND poor etiquette? This was all his creation. In other words to you, donk can create a situation where he's outside the rules but still looks like the 'good guy'...Hard disagree there.

And Hero called donk's freak shove, he's well within his rights to see donk's cards. He could muck if ashamed of his donk move.

Last edited by ss1; 08-14-2019 at 09:27 PM.

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08-14-2019 , 09:24 PM

#67

Didace

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It's like you think the rules and etiquette are the same thing. But you couldn't possibly think something as inane as that was true, right?

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08-14-2019 , 09:24 PM

#68

chillrob

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Tapping the glass is almost exactly the same as poor etiquette in a poker context.

And I haven't seen much wrath in this thread either.

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08-14-2019 , 09:31 PM

#69

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didace

It's like you think the rules and etiquette are the same thing. But you couldn't possibly think something as inane as that was true, right?

Generally speaking, otherwise why have rules and customs and decorum? But according to some others, ppl can have a mild tantrum and bend the rules and that's OK.

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08-14-2019 , 09:55 PM

#70

madlex

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1

Generally speaking, otherwise why have rules and customs and decorum?

There are lots of things that are within the rules and considered bad etiquette at the same time. Slowrolling is an example. Another one would be every single angle shot in the book.

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08-14-2019 , 10:22 PM

#71

Didace

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1

Generally speaking, otherwise why have rules and customs and decorum?

Customs and decorum aren't etiquette? I would be interested in your definition.

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08-14-2019 , 10:26 PM

#72

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by madlex

There are lots of things that are within the rules and considered bad etiquette at the same time. Slowrolling is an example. Another one would be every single angle shot in the book.

Where is it written in rules slow rolling, etc are allowed?

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08-14-2019 , 10:27 PM

#73

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didace

Customs and decorum aren't etiquette? I would be interested in your definition.

Try to stay on topic.

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08-14-2019 , 10:45 PM

#74

madlex

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1

Where is it written in rules slow rolling, etc are allowed?

Are you trolling? There’s also nothing in the rules that says farting at the table is allowed. That’s something else considered bad etiquette while not violating the written rules.

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08-14-2019 , 11:10 PM

#75

ss1

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by madlex

Are you trolling? There’s also nothing in the rules that says farting at the table is allowed. That’s something else considered bad etiquette while not violating the written rules.

Are *you* guys trolling? There's nothing in the rules that says you can't take a dump in the middle either, but that's neither here nor there.

Again, stay on topic. You guys are turning it on the OP when the one with bad etiquette is the donk wasting time not wanting to show when called.

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