I played 1-2 pounds cash game in a casino. There is a guy siting on my left being super aggressive and raise every pot I entered, forcing me to play very passive and tight. Then it comes this hand when I was on BB and he straddled. I looked down AJ suited. Knowing that he will very likely to raise the stradle, I flat called preflop. He raised to 25 as expected. I reraised him to 100 as I planed, and then he reraised to 300 and put me all in. I thought about it for a while and called.

The board case A 8 9 5 3 Rainbow. He announced he has an 8 in his hand. I said I called you and I would like to see your hands. He reluctantly showed 8T offsuite. I turned over AJ. He then called me idiot and bad atiqutte at poker table. I need to know how he plays otherwise I will keep on losing.

What is your opinion? Do I have the right to see his cards?

Yes you have a right to see his cards since you paid for the information. Protect against a slow roll as well. Many people don't care enough to make people show, but it is a game of information. You already knew his range was super wide and he knew yours was probably in the capped range.

The higher the stakes the more butthurt people get over you forcing them to show. Then they turn it more into an etiquette thing.


Did you want to just generally see what he had? Maybe picked up information for future hands?

Regardless you did have the right since you called.

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It has been a tough game for me whole night since I was forced to play a style I am not confortable with. So yes it was super important for me to know his cards to counter his style, otherwise it is difficult to continue my game having this guy on my left. He sweared at me after the incident and there were people on the table helping him saying it was bad atiquette of me. I felt uncomfortable and left the table.

What venue in London? You said 1/2 pounds.

I agree you wanted the information and were with your rights.

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It was empire casino. If I can't see his cards, how can I beat this guy? I lost a few pots to him not knowing if he was bluffing or not.

You're fine, especially with a stranger where you don't know for sure if he likes to slow roll.

Personally, I would talk back at him and just say "i can beat that" and then let him decide what to do, but sometimes people will get angry. That's the risk you run insisting on showdown order. Just ignore it, say "I called you", and then move on.

Yea Empire, has the regs plus tourist spot. Well going forward you dod nothing wrong. Lots of people say your good then slow roll or go oh i can beat that, yet they didnt want to show unless they have to. It is tilting at times. Remember this is a game of information where you are often telling a story and trying to range people on hands.

Keep playing your game. Also did you think to seat change?

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You have the right to ask him to table first.

That said, he already told you he had an 8. Assuming he’s not lying, which people usually don’t do at showdown because that might get them kicked out, you have all the “information” necessary. We know the best hands he can have are K8s or 98s and his all-in was a bluff. What else do we need to know?

As far as the etiquette question goes, I don’t think there’s a consensus on that one. Some people would agree that you asking him to table first is perfectly fine others will say that not tabling is bad etiquette because you know you have the winner after he announced 8.

Your tactic was 100% standard.

Disagree. There's no bad etiquette about it at all, and shouldn't really be debatable. There's lots of scumbags at the tables, and you have a right to see his hand first. Not hear him announce it (because he might be angle shooting), but to actually see his full hand. There's absolutely nothing wrong etiquette-wise with asking him to table it first.

Although I agree that you were in the right 100% ... did you consider that you were 'poking the glass' so to speak? How would your table-mates feel if this guy got pissed off and cashed out? What if your request now 'inspires' this Player to start playing 'better'?

I do my own share of 'in turn' show requests for informational purposes, but I also try to be aware of the whole table/player dynamic and at times just fast-roll this type of Player to avoid any embarrassment that I might cause for forcing a show like this one. It may allow them to maintain their dignity by saying 'nice suck-out, I had AK'. You've seen plenty of his holdings to this point in time I assume. Would you have changed your play going forward if he actually did show down AK? (It's possible that you've been playing so tight that he actually is playing a tighter range against you.)

I actually don't mind (maybe not prefer) being on 'this' person's right. This hand is a perfect example. They do the opening raise for you and then you can isolate with some extra dead money in the middle. Learning to adapt to all poker conditions can only help your game.

Sorry if I sound like I'm getting down on you, I'm just trying to get you to consider what did you actually gain from the show? Are you ever going to see this guy again? How much longer was your (or his) session going to last in an effort to use the intel? GL

Guy was a jackass. He wanted to show one card thinking it might be good. Either you show both cards or just fold. If he wanted to fold and you asked to see his cards, that’s somewhat bad etiquette. It’s an unwritten rule that if someone wants to fold postflop you should just let them do that, but as others have said you paid for the information and given his aggressive nature I think it’s probably justified to see his hand even if he wants to fold.

Aren't there rooms where if there is no betting on the river the person to show first is the first one to the left of the dealer? Or does that not apply to all-ins?


Also, why would you want to force the guy to show? I know, info, info, info, blah, blah, blah. So what? A guy that raises constantly sounds like a gold mine. I would not want to upset him.

"I have that beat"....and wait it out.

Thing is, he is not a fish and he mixed it up well. I have lost few pots to him and i was a bit tilt. I dont know what he has been playing. I had to call all my chip in with AJ and it was a tough spot. I just think its only fair if i can see his cards since I paid to see.

I think that most rooms go by 'EP to' the Button .. not a previous street's action .. unless the Players are all-in. The first 'all-in' Player shows unless there's a side pot.

OK ... I'll continue to bite here. If you had lost a few pots to him how did you not know what he's been playing? Fold to pressure? Did he not show down to other opponents when you were't in the hand?

We all agree that it's 'fair' and within the rules ... the thread has long been over on that talking point. The 'new' issue is whether or not it's 'right' or in the best interest of the game to actually force the show?

Based on your description of the spot and your frame of mind at the time perhaps it was the better option.

But I will add another comment .. Do you really want the rest of the table to see his hand and start calling him down that much lighter? The fact that you won (and were willing to put in your stack) with AJ gives off enough information as it is IMO.

I will ask again ... If he shows down ATs or AK here, do you play the next spot differently? You win one but not the other. If so, then you need the intel you are asking for. If not, then all the show does is reinforce a table dynamic that you admit you are uncomfortable with currently. GL

That only applies when the action is played to the river and it goes check check. This situation the last aggressive action was the villain so he must show first if you force him to.

OP you did nothing wrong here you called his last bet and it wasn't for him to declare a hand without showing it you paid to see it. This is my default line against all randoms, if its my showdown at the river i show it first whether its the nuts or 8 high and expect the same from my opponents. If its someone i am familiar with or a obvious whale and they announce they missed and are embarrassed to show it will just table my hand as a courtesy.

your right to see his cards
but
the others defended him because you tapped the fish bowl

and don't take this as an insult but
you knew he was playing loose
you needing to see the cards is a leak in your mental game
I doubt seeing one hand of his helped you at all

if your not a reg there then its no big deal
if you plan on logging a lot of hours there
keeping things lighthearted and jovial is much more +EV then seeing one hand ever will be

If he show AK then i know he isnt capable lf four bet light, kf he show AT then i knonwhe four bet light. Its a huge difference to me and i can adjust my three bet range and four bet calling range.

Table dont see his cards at all but very suspecious. I lost two pot to him, one hand i folded 88 to his three bet, one had i folded top paor agaisnt his massive turn overbet.

Not sure how to respond to that other than saying that if you disagree with my statement that some players consider that bad etiquette, you probably haven’t played much live poker.

Personally, I don’t think it is. But I’ve witnessed several instances of players calling somebody out for doing it and others verbally agreeing with them. Thinking that you’re supposed to fast-roll a likely winner isn’t that uncommon. And TP is the likely winner after the other guy announced third pair.

FWIW, I don’t think that’s a “don’t tap the glass” situation. OP said that villain made him play very tight-passive which isn’t a winning approach. So you could argue that chasing that player from the game would be in OPs best interest. I don’t want to turn this into a strategy discussion, but if you’re able to get someone to play pretty bad for a long time it might be well worth it to be all-in as a 2-1 underdog with them once in a while. In this specific hand, villain’s EV after getting all-in is roughly -50BB. That might be not too bad.

The better you know people and friendlier you are, the more I would tend to just flip it up when they say they have an 8. In S Florida I wont even respond if a stranger tries to just show one... after a few seconds if I dont see the other I just act like they are crazy and ask wtf they are waiting for. One thing I learned down here is that just because someone on the TV said something is bad etiquette doesnt make it so.

Here's a link to an earlier thread about this question.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...ight=etiquette

The discussion always breaks into two camps.
1. From an etiquette perspective it is generally considered bad form to ask to see a hand if you beat the declared hand. That's etiquette, an informal rule of behavior expected by a group. Players who give primacy to etiquette generally belief that the social aspects of poker keep good games going and rec players, esp rich rec players, happy and having fun. They believe this far outweighs the value of seeing any one individual hand.

2. You are absolutely within your rights by the formal rules of poker to ask to see the cards first. People who give this primacy believe that every scrap of info is valuable, more valuable than the social or informal behaviors expected by etiquette.

So the answer to your question in your thread title is both. insisting on seeing a hand when a player has declared a hand you beat is bad etiquette and also fair play. You have to decide which one is more important to you in the games you play in.

Tight-passive is a winning approach against an opponent who is over-aggressive, bluffs too much, and bets your hand for you when you have it.

Forcing this player to show might make him angry enough to continue his aggression, maybe even increase it. Or it may embarrass him and cause him to slow down. It's up to you to read his personality and decide which way he leans and if you want to engage in that sort of gamesmanship.

It is also possible that there is a divergence in American and English views on proper etiquette. I suppose some British expect the same sort of gentlemanly behavior that is expected in cricket.

The guy tried to pull a big bluff with a weak hand and is embarrassed to show it. It's bad etiquette to force him to show the bluff for the sake of a miniscule information edge, but I'd consider it a very minor "offense," similar to declining a round of straddles.

It's bad for your bottom line to embarrass fish when they get caught bluffing. Let them quietly muck their hand if they want to. Poker is not as fun when everybody is so cutthroat trying to capture every small edge they can at the expense of friendliness.

BTW, this guy is absolutely a fish based on this T8o hand and his description.

I never force someone to show if they announce a hand I can beat. It embarrasses them, they might tighten up or get angry and spoil an easy going table vibe. I guess if I had a grudge against a guy for some reason, I would force it.

I don’t consider it wrong to force a show but other people may not see it that way so don’t be surprised if you get some push back. I don’t think it’s important enough to insist because most people are just bad at poker so I don’t care about their exact hand.