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Old 11-05-2017, 12:11 PM   #26
Rapini
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Because a person cant be prosecuted without the victim testifying against him. The accused has a constitutional right to "confront their accuser" in court. The courts are already overloaded with cases without adding more cases where they already know the victim isnt going to cooperate and show up in court.

Only in cases of family violence (mostly husband/wife) will most jurisdictions prosecute without a cooperating victim and that's because so many wives are afraid to testify against the husband that the County takes over as the "Complainant". Even then they need a written statement and pictures from the victim or nothing can be done.
This, on the other hand, is a good post.

In this case, the police might not need the victim to prosecute if there is other strong evidence, like video evidence and testimony from other players or the dealer. But from a practical standpoint, nothing would be easier than having the full participation and cooperation of the victim.
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Old 11-05-2017, 12:17 PM   #27
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Re: Assaulted at live game

I personally would let it go. But I'm a big guy and don't mind a fight every once in a while
I also don't like getting cops involved in anything. Casino should ban him either way
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Old 11-05-2017, 12:27 PM   #28
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
This is a common misconception. Victims do not press charges, only the DA can press charges.

In many cases, the lack of a cooperating victim, in cases that depend on testimony, are difficult to prosecute, but not impossible. Otherwise there would be very few people tried for murder. In this case, where there was, I assume, ample video evidence, the police could choose to arrest, and the DA could choose to press charges, without the victims cooperation. But they won't, because the crime is too minor, and it would be too much work and too little payoff if the victim is not cooperating.
There's nothing in my post that is a misconception. I didn't say the victim presses charges.

Besides youre splitting hairs. If you want to be technical, the phrase "press charges" is commonly used to mean the victim is cooperating with police and the courts and wants the case to go forward. Technically, the police send the case to the DA's office who then "files" the charges with the court. Nobody "presses" charges. "Press" doesnt mean anything.

Last edited by MikeStarr; 11-05-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 11-05-2017, 12:49 PM   #29
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by Greg (FossilMan) View Post
Strongly disagree with this. Asking the dealer to square the table is exactly how it should be done. Except that the dealer should do it automatically without needing to be asked.

The villain did all the escalating here, as told by the OP. He got physical with OP's chips, and then went psycho after OP said 3 words. While you certainly should realize that telling somebody to F*** off might result in a physical reaction, that doesn't mean that they are justified in any sense to do so. To me this sounds the same as telling a woman it's partially her fault she was raped because she was dressed provocatively, or because she flirted with the guy.

While OP should decide what's best for himself, if it were me, I'd ask the prosecutor to throw the book at villain. As others have said, given his rapid escalation to physical violence, this probably isn't his first assault, nor will it be his last, so let's get him away from the rest of us ASAP until he learns his lesson.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
+1
over the years I have asked the dealer to square a table a couple dozen times; I have never ever once asked a player or players directly as that is the dealers responsibility not mine.

always press charges, what if this psycho jumps you 2 weeks from now. you want it documented and on file.
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:42 PM   #30
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Re: Assaulted at live game

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the option of filing civil charges rather than criminal. If I were the OP, I'd sue the bastard. And before anyone asks, physical injury is not required for a lawsuit to be successful (although it would obviously impact the damages awarded).
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:04 PM   #31
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
There's nothing in my post that is a misconception. I didn't say the victim presses charges.

Besides youre splitting hairs. If you want to be technical, the phrase "press charges" is commonly used to mean the victim is cooperating with police and the courts and wants the case to go forward. Technically, the police send the case to the DA's office who then "files" the charges with the court. Nobody "presses" charges. "Press" doesnt mean anything.
Sorry, meant to respond to the same post you responded to, not to you.
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:17 PM   #32
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the option of filing civil charges rather than criminal. If I were the OP, I'd sue the bastard. And before anyone asks, physical injury is not required for a lawsuit to be successful (although it would obviously impact the damages awarded).
This is taking things too far in my opinion. He could be "successful" and get a $1 judgment after spending hundreds or thousands in legal fees.
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:27 PM   #33
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
This is a really bad post.
No, it's a good post. It's just unappreciated by the poker community where everyone thinks they are a +10 bb/hr winner and half the strategy posts begin with "my table image is solid."

This is the way that everything works in the world outside of poker (and politics): adults learn how to play together.

And a big part of that is learning how to avoid ****shows. The first rule is that you don't involve authorities unless you need to. Is your seat crowded? Ask the person who needs to move - politely, directly, and reasonably. If a bunch of people need to move, ask the row if they can all move over a few inches.

What the OP did is the equivalent of CCing someone's boss on E-mail, and if you don't understand why that grates on people, you're definitely part of the problem.

As for the villain's response, sure, it's a gross overreaction and of course he's gonna get punished*. But just because Villain was an idiot doesn't mean Hero wasn't also an idiot.

The vast majority of cluster****s in B&M are due to 2+ idiots converging in space and time.

---

* If you really want my opinion on the matter, don't press charges and the next time you play with them, say, "I really regret what happened last time, I just wanna play poker. Deal?" and shake his hand. But that's presuming that you're better at poker than fighting, so playing poker - even if everyone at the table and on the Internet thinks you're a huge pussy - is the most profitable long term solution.
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:31 PM   #34
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Re: Assaulted at live game

I've seen many players get pissy about having to square off. It's pathetic. It takes what? 3.5 seconds?
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:44 PM   #35
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Re: Assaulted at live game

The police ask if you want to press charges bec they don't want you to do it in a case like this w/o serious physical injury. It's a PITA for them. Think for a minute: If OP'd needed to be transported to the hospital w/ broken bones the police wouldn't ask, they'd have already arrested the perpetrator. When they ask if you want to press charges they do it bec they know it's border line.
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:55 PM   #36
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Sorry, meant to respond to the same post you responded to, not to you.
Ahh, makes sense now.
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Old 11-05-2017, 03:31 PM   #37
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
No, it's a good post. It's just unappreciated by the poker community where everyone thinks they are a +10 bb/hr winner and half the strategy posts begin with "my table image is solid."

This is the way that everything works in the world outside of poker (and politics): adults learn how to play together.

And a big part of that is learning how to avoid ****shows. The first rule is that you don't involve authorities unless you need to. Is your seat crowded? Ask the person who needs to move - politely, directly, and reasonably. If a bunch of people need to move, ask the row if they can all move over a few inches.

What the OP did is the equivalent of CCing someone's boss on E-mail, and if you don't understand why that grates on people, you're definitely part of the problem.

As for the villain's response, sure, it's a gross overreaction and of course he's gonna get punished*. But just because Villain was an idiot doesn't mean Hero wasn't also an idiot.

The vast majority of cluster****s in B&M are due to 2+ idiots converging in space and time.

---

* If you really want my opinion on the matter, don't press charges and the next time you play with them, say, "I really regret what happened last time, I just wanna play poker. Deal?" and shake his hand. But that's presuming that you're better at poker than fighting, so playing poker - even if everyone at the table and on the Internet thinks you're a huge pussy - is the most profitable long term solution.
Your post is based on an assumption that someone who already was taking more than his fair share of space at the table, who reacted to a standard request (squaring the table) by touching another player's chips, and who physically assaulted another player would react in a positive manner if asked politely and directly to move. That's absurd. OP was not dealing with a reasonable person.

There are plenty of times where blame could be assigned equally among all parties or in which the "hero" contributed almost as significantly to the problem as the "villain," but you picked the wrong scenario to blame the victim here.
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Old 11-05-2017, 03:37 PM   #38
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Re: Assaulted at live game

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
No, it's a good post. It's just unappreciated by the poker community where everyone thinks they are a +10 bb/hr winner and half the strategy posts begin with "my table image is solid."

This is the way that everything works in the world outside of poker (and politics): adults learn how to play together.
Now you are dismissing the opinions of poker players as a class in a poker forum on a topic about interacting with other poker players.

Quote:
And a big part of that is learning how to avoid ****shows. The first rule is that you don't involve authorities unless you need to. Is your seat crowded? Ask the person who needs to move - politely, directly, and reasonably. If a bunch of people need to move, ask the row if they can all move over a few inches.

What the OP did is the equivalent of CCing someone's boss on E-mail, and if you don't understand why that grates on people, you're definitely part of the problem.

As for the villain's response, sure, it's a gross overreaction and of course he's gonna get punished*. But just because Villain was an idiot doesn't mean Hero wasn't also an idiot.

The vast majority of cluster****s in B&M are due to 2+ idiots converging in space and time.

---

* If you really want my opinion on the matter, don't press charges and the next time you play with them, say, "I really regret what happened last time, I just wanna play poker. Deal?" and shake his hand. But that's presuming that you're better at poker than fighting, so playing poker - even if everyone at the table and on the Internet thinks you're a huge pussy - is the most profitable long term solution.
Escalating is an increase in intensity or seriousness. At no point did OP escalate. If you think asking to square the table is some kind of affront to the other players then you're going to find almost everybody disagreeing with you. When OP used a mild verbal insult it was only after villain was already being physically aggressive, so it is not escalation.

It's possible that the situation could have been avoided if OP attempted to de-escalate, but OP is not at fault for setting off an irrational violent person with behavior which wouldn't normally cause problems.

Most of your posts are great but you're way off here, IMO.

I would press charges.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:07 PM   #39
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Because a person cant be prosecuted without the victim testifying against him. The accused has a constitutional right to "confront their accuser" in court. The courts are already overloaded with cases without adding more cases where they already know the victim isnt going to cooperate and show up in court.

Only in cases of family violence (mostly husband/wife) will most jurisdictions prosecute without a cooperating victim and that's because so many wives are afraid to testify against the husband that the County takes over as the "Complainant". Even then they need a written statement and pictures from the victim or nothing can be done.
A person can be prosecuted without the victim testifying ... (obviously or there would never be a murder prosecution). And this case would be a strong candidate for it for several reasons ... the video being the main one.

However having the victime testify is always helpful and there is a certain feeling that with the courts being overburdened that it is best not to use resources pursuing offenses where the victim doesn't want the case pursued. Of course there are some exceptions .... with many DA's offices putting great emphasis on things like Domestic Violence cases even when the "victim" doesn;t want to press charges.... and laws and policies in place requiring an arrest in such cases.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:09 PM   #40
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Bec he realizes that a large part of what happens after '**** you' is on him?
No it isn’t. The f bomb is not right but dropping it does not remove his accountability for physically assaulting someone. Nothing I say allows you to touch me
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:13 PM   #41
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
Maybe I am totally oblivious here, but would not the casino want to permaban some guy who physically attacks another customer? Unless ,of course he is "connected", or someones nephew or or something I guess. If the casino does ban him I would likely not push it any further to avoid the disruption. Just my opinion.

OP where was this? Major casino, Small, or an underground room??
Smaller casino with a busy poker room. Eight tables.

He has in fact been permabanned.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:20 PM   #42
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the option of filing civil charges rather than criminal. If I were the OP, I'd sue the bastard. And before anyone asks, physical injury is not required for a lawsuit to be successful (although it would obviously impact the damages awarded).
I would consider this if I was more seriously injured. It is two days later and I do still have a very noticeable red mark on my neck.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:23 PM   #43
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by dave88 View Post
Smaller casino with a busy poker room. Eight tables.

He has in fact been permabanned.
Thanks. Thought it might be a bit more likely in a less than major room. Glad to hear they banned him. Good luck what ever you decide to do.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:45 PM   #44
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Bec he realizes that a large part of what happens after '**** you' is on him?
Maybe it's because you are from a different time and a different part of the world than me and other soft avocado toast loving millenials, but telling somebody FU isn't even close to warranting a physical assault.

On Friday morning, local TV showed news about somebody being shot in an apparent road rage incident at a traffic light. Does getting shot over flipping somebody the finger also fall into that "a large part is on you" category or does that cross the line?

FWIW, I would see a doctor and also complain about headaches, trouble sleeping and panic attacks and sue that guy.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:23 PM   #45
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Re: Assaulted at live game

Not long ago a guy tanked for about 2 full minutes on the river. He was facing a raise but it wasnt even that big. I finally called for the clock (I wasnt in the hand). The guy I called the clock on said "Shut your ****ing mouth".

I didnt choke him.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:34 PM   #46
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
A person can be prosecuted without the victim testifying ... (obviously or there would never be a murder prosecution). And this case would be a strong candidate for it for several reasons ... the video being the main one.

However having the victime testify is always helpful and there is a certain feeling that with the courts being overburdened that it is best not to use resources pursuing offenses where the victim doesn't want the case pursued. Of course there are some exceptions .... with many DA's offices putting great emphasis on things like Domestic Violence cases even when the "victim" doesn;t want to press charges.... and laws and policies in place requiring an arrest in such cases.
SMH....Ill leave it at that.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:59 PM   #47
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Re: Assaulted at live game

OP- was there a hand in progress when you set your chips down and asked the dealer to square the table? Was the guy who pushed your chips in the hand? Since there was not enough room, as you said, when you set your chips down before giving anyone time to make room for you, were you putting them really close to the other player, where he felt you were invading what was, at the time, his playing space or maybe too close to his chips?

Depending on how that played out, I could see how you could be seen as really rude, trying to force your way into a tight spot before even giving anyone a chance to adjust after the hand. No one interrupts a hand to square a table at the request of a new guy. And maybe it is a generational thing, and I'm old, but IME if you say **** you to a stranger, you better be prepared for a fight, because many people consider those fighting words.
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:12 PM   #48
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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OP- was there a hand in progress when you set your chips down and asked the dealer to square the table? Was the guy who pushed your chips in the hand? Since there was not enough room, as you said, when you set your chips down before giving anyone time to make room for you, were you putting them really close to the other player, where he felt you were invading what was, at the time, his playing space or maybe too close to his chips?

Depending on how that played out, I could see how you could be seen as really rude, trying to force your way into a tight spot before even giving anyone a chance to adjust after the hand. No one interrupts a hand to square a table at the request of a new guy. And maybe it is a generational thing, and I'm old, but IME if you say **** you to a stranger, you better be prepared for a fight, because many people consider those fighting words.
Nothing of that matters one iota. Don't assault people if you don't want to end up in court.
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:20 PM   #49
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Re: Assaulted at live game

Yes you should press charges. If the moron only needs to be cursed at become violent, you want to get him on "the system's" radar. Next time it may be a child or woman he attacks.
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:24 PM   #50
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Re: Assaulted at live game

I bet it would be interesting to see a poll of who thinks OP should press charges and who thinks he shouldnt and see the age breakdown. My guess is that younger people are much more likely to think he should press charges and older people are more likely to say not to.
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