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Old 11-30-2017, 06:13 AM   #326
Riverine
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by TreadLightly View Post
How do people consider ' **** you ' fighting words in 2017 ? lol I would probably laugh if someone said it to me in almost any instant ( then again I am not an idiot who pushes somebodies chips at the table )
While you may think that in 2017 poker rooms across the country are filled with enlightened people who laugh when people say **** you to them, they are not. And even if it were a mixture of types, the point is that since you are dealing with a total stranger, you have no way of knowing whether he is one of your new, enlightened types or an old school, those are fighting words type. And considering the fact that his response to "dealer square up the table" was to push OP's chips over, I'd lean towards him being more on the fighting words side than the laughing side. So it is in your best interest not to say such a thing to an unknown person if you are trying to minimize the likelihood of a physical altercation occurring.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:31 AM   #327
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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There's a difference between trying to choke someone (grabbing the neck to obstruct the airway) and what the OP described, which, for those who haven't watched Star Trek, is basically someone grabbing his shoulder near the neck.

And while OP may not have recognized the significance of using the phrase, several times it's specifically shown to be spectacularly ineffective when humans try it because only Vulcans (and half-Vulcans, as Spock's mother was human) are strong enough. It's specifically used as a non-violent way of incapacitating people.
I guess I can agree that if the assailant were Vulcan, he might not have had violent intent. I don't think that has much to do with the situation at hand though.
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Old 11-30-2017, 03:40 PM   #328
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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He then lunged at me and grabs my neck like he's trying to do the Vulcan nerve pinch or something. Security was nearby and got him off me pretty quickly, I didn't strike him back or anything. Then as they've got him nearby he dodged away from them and lunged at me trying to grab my neck one handed again, he managed to grab it again briefly before they had him off me.
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He never actually struck me, he did leave quite a mark where he grabbed my neck though.
Vulcan grab may have been a misnomer.

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He said he would see me and get me or something to that effect as they pulled him away.
THIS is a primary reason to ask authorities to "get it on the record"
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Old 11-30-2017, 06:23 PM   #329
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
THIS [verbally threatening OP as he was dragged away] is a primary reason to ask authorities to "get it on the record"
I actually agree with this. This verbal threat is worse than a 1-handed shoulder grab. I'm far more willing to hug it out with someone who Vulcan neck pinched me than someone who sustains a verbal grudge.

(To be fair, Villain tried to grab OP a second time so that definitely adds some weight to the side that says we should report - just not enough IMO.)

Unfortunately, it's unlikely that Villain broke any laws by saying those things so trying to press those charges is difficult.
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:39 PM   #330
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Re: Assaulted at live game

Contrarianfest 2017.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:13 AM   #331
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by CheckRaiseTheTurn View Post
You WERE the instigator.
Not the old man.
Why does everyone in this forum insist on arguing which person to assign 100% blame to, rather than what percentage blame to each person?

As much as I agree with you overall, the person who struck first is going to face the plurality of punishment.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:16 AM   #332
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Why does everyone in this forum insist on arguing which person to assign 100% blame to, rather than what percentage blame to each person?

As much as I agree with you overall, the person who struck first is going to face the plurality of punishment.
His post also completely misses the point of the thread.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:32 AM   #333
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by CheckRaiseTheTurn View Post
OP, dave88
You're clearly lacking in social skills.
You are DIRECTLY responsible for what happened.
Instead of acknowledging the table first, a simple "what's up guys"
The first words out of your mouth are "square the table please"
As if everyone around you is a robot that the dealer controls.
The people on the table all felt disrespected and the old man moved but pushed your chips over in anger.
Now instead of deescalating the situation you say "**** you man" to the guy who's already clearly pissed.
He pushed your chips not your little sister.
Humans have emotions.
You and the old man both need anger management.
I don't care if you said "**** you man" in a calm manner it was the wrong thing to say.
How about "calm down man".
Do you not realize that there are alot of people in this world with mental issues, guns & extremely short fuses.
People actually lose their lives for telling strangers to go **** themselves.
I'm not saying that's right, it's completely messed up.
But words are VERY powerful.
Instead of considering yourself lucky to only have a little red mark on your neck you're actually pressing charges.
Life is not a game man.
Take accountability for what happened.
You WERE the instigator.
Not the old man.
1. Paragraphs, look into them.

2. No, antisocial behavior (and I am not conceding that telling the dealer to square the table is antisocial) is not justification for escalation. Yes, OP could have been more graceful, but if you look at behaviors that are reasonabel and unreasonable, OP's actions are much more reasonable than the assaulter. Touching someone else's chips, then touching their person are both quantum leaps in escalation.

3. And I cannot emphasize this enough, please make better use of white space.
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Old 12-10-2017, 05:39 PM   #334
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Re: Assaulted at live game

I would press charges 100% of the time

Physical violence should not be tolerated
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Old 12-28-2017, 02:07 PM   #335
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Re: Assaulted at live game

OP was NOT the instigator by any means. He's under no obligation to "greet the table" or any other such nonsense. Nobody has the right to touch another player's chips in a game and anyone who does deserves to be treated the way OP treated him. Nobody ever has the right to assault another player no matter what the other person says to him.

That being said, I wouldn't press charges. There was no real damage done. I would insist the guy gets banned for life and leave it at that. The other guy is a major douche and definitely wrong for doing it but I don't think it warrants slapping him with a criminal record.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:59 PM   #336
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
OP was NOT the instigator by any means. He's under no obligation to "greet the table" or any other such nonsense. Nobody has the right to touch another player's chips in a game and anyone who does deserves to be treated the way OP treated him. Nobody ever has the right to assault another player no matter what the other person says to him.

That being said, I wouldn't press charges. There was no real damage done. I would insist the guy gets banned for life and leave it at that. The other guy is a major douche and definitely wrong for doing it but I don't think it warrants slapping him with a criminal record.
If you knew that the assailant already had a criminal record or he had done something like this in the past, would that change your mind?
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:21 PM   #337
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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If you knew that the assailant already had a criminal record or he had done something like this in the past, would that change your mind?
This is a trick question in the literal sense. The goal is to trick him to say yes, and then point out that if nobody files charges, nobody down the line will know, boom mind blown.

The reason it's a trick (and not a bona fide justification) is because you won't know charges have been pressed in the past when you're deciding whether to press charges this time. That is, while someone pressing charges in the past may increase the punishment for your case, you don't know that and have to decide whether to press charges with no knowledge of prior history.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:26 PM   #338
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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This is a trick question in the literal sense. The goal is to trick him to say yes, and then point out that if nobody files charges, nobody down the line will know, boom mind blown.

The reason it's a trick (and not a bona fide justification) is because you won't know charges have been pressed in the past when you're deciding whether to press charges this time. That is, while someone pressing charges in the past may increase the punishment for your case, you don't know that and have to decide whether to press charges with no knowledge of prior history.
The fact that you don't know whether it's happened in the past is yet another reason to press charges. If it hasn't happened before, it is extremely likely that there will be a light or no sentence. If it has happened before, it's time for that person to be removed from society.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:49 PM   #339
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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The fact that you don't know whether it's happened in the past is yet another reason to press charges. If it hasn't happened before, it is extremely likely that there will be a light or no sentence. If it has happened before, it's time for that person to be removed from society.
There are a lot of collateral consequences to a criminal conviction that have nothing to do with actual sentence
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:26 PM   #340
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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There are a lot of collateral consequences to a criminal conviction that have nothing to do with actual sentence
I'm sure the assailant carefully weighed the risks and benefits of assaulting the OP before doing so.

Seriously though, what undeserved or unreasonable "collateral consequences" are you talking about?
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:53 PM   #341
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Re: Assaulted at live game

The use of force is never justified to resolve a dispute that escalated froma verbal to a physical one. However, it is perfectly acceptable to use force to remove someone from society for a physical dispute that resulted in little to no injury. Bah.
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:31 AM   #342
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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The use of force is never justified to resolve a dispute that escalated froma verbal to a physical one. However, it is perfectly acceptable to use force to remove someone from society for a pattern of physical violence.
Agreed.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:06 PM   #343
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Seriously though, what undeserved or unreasonable "collateral consequences" are you talking about?
I presume you won't ban me for "off topic" posting if it answers a direct question?

California tried the "get tough on crime" stance in the 1990s, sent thousands of people to jail for minor crimes. They took peoples' juvenile brain farts - including minor physical violence such as this - and harshly sentenced people to "remove them from society" during their most promising years. Peoples' sentenced compounded as they were introduced to more prison life than non-prison life. Now there's a whole generation of people who are locked up for minor infractions, major infractions that only occured in prison, or because they're basically institutionalized and truly no longer able to function in society. The prison budget is bloated and is competitive with the education budget in terms of size and scope.

Casinos, often located in high crime areas, further stress the local police with a litany of minor crimes - degens swiping $1 chips, drunk and disorderlies, etc. There's some fractional deaths that are attributed to police tending to a bruised shoulder instead of stopping an argument between two gangs before the guns come out.

If you live in some kind of utopia where the police have unlimited time and unlimited jail space and the judges are thoughtful and considerate, and the system as a whole focuses on the benefit of society rather than meeting legislative quotas, then I readily admit my opinions have no place in your society.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:54 PM   #344
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Agreed.
Still not willing to address the issue of little to no injury from tha physical altercation?
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:03 PM   #345
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Still not willing to address the issue of little to no injury from tha physical altercation?
That doesn't matter to me, as been established previously. The fact that it happened is good enough.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:18 PM   #346
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Re: Assaulted at live game

So does physical violence or a physical altercation ever justifiably occur in your world or is it simply all criminal conduct?
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:28 PM   #347
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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So does physical violence or a physical altercation ever justifiably occur in your world or is it simply all criminal conduct?
Not in response to words. Maybe you can provide a counterexample though.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:29 PM   #348
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Not in response to words. Maybe you can provide a counterexample though.
"Fighting words."
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Old 12-29-2017, 02:00 PM   #349
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Not in response to words. Maybe you can provide a counterexample though.
It seems to me you are advocating that initiating a physical altercation is always criminal, no matter the result. What about defense of property or stand your ground laws as counterexamples?

I think we would agree that physical violence as self defense or defense of others can be justified. But i am having trouble understanding when you would think initiating a physical altercation is allowable and not simply criminal conduct.
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:52 PM   #350
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Re: Assaulted at live game

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
It seems to me you are advocating that initiating a physical altercation is always criminal, no matter the result. What about defense of property or stand your ground laws as counterexamples?

I think we would agree that physical violence as self defense or defense of others can be justified. But i am having trouble understanding when you would think initiating a physical altercation is allowable and not simply criminal conduct.
I'm pretty sure I've already said self-defense is fine. That's not the situation in the OP.
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