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Another pot pushing issue .. Floor? Another pot pushing issue .. Floor?

07-21-2017 , 10:09 AM
Try to keep this short ...

Player in Seat 1 shoves PF .. Seat 2 calls ... Board runs out

Seat 2 shows hand first, Seat 1 'inches' cards forward face down and stands up.

Dealer pushes pot, Seat 2 starts stacking

Dealer starts to ask Seat 1 if he's coming back, which causes Seat 1 to turn back around and look at table.

Seat 1 'sees' board and turns his cards over, showing a straight ... the winning hand.

Seat 2 is basically done stacking the chips into his stack.

Dealer wants the pot back .. Seat 2 refuses ... FLOOR!!!

It gets better .. The first Floor was overruled and I'll give details of that as well. GL
Another pot pushing issue .. Floor? Quote
07-21-2017 , 10:25 AM
the dealer is a douche for not mucking the hand before pushing the pot.

as played, they should give the guy who initially mucked the pot. I've seen cases where cameras were called and it went both ways, so it's really up to the house's final ruling.

The guy not wanting to give the chips back needs to decide to give them back or get banned, and possibly get criminal charges placed on him for theft but the rooms usually won't take it that far.
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07-21-2017 , 10:54 AM
Yeah, sounds like a dealer issue mostly. As played could go either way
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07-21-2017 , 11:03 AM
Reconstruct pot as best you can, ship to seat 1. Remind dealer to never push a pot until all losing/mucked cards are buried in the muck.

Not sure how to make seat give them up other than ramping up threats of banning/won't be able to cash out/possible criminal charged.
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07-21-2017 , 11:13 AM
Seat 1 deserves to lose. While he may actually be entitled to the pot, for his lack of attention and indecisiveness I hope he doesn't get it.
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07-21-2017 , 11:39 AM
RRoP:
Quote:
6. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, and the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been observed, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.
Also, what Reducto said. KITN to dealer for not killing losers first. There is a reason we have procedures. They fix problems like this.
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07-21-2017 , 11:47 AM
When the pot is pushed the hand is over. That's always been the rule I've heard.
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07-21-2017 , 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig4bill
When the pot is pushed the hand is over. That's always been the rule I've heard.
I know of no room where this is the rule. The most typical rule I think is that the awarding of the pot can be contested until the start of the next hand.
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07-21-2017 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig4bill
When the pot is pushed the hand is over. That's always been the rule I've heard.
I am surprised to hear you say that. I didn't bother quoting rule 5, referenced in rule 6 which I quoted above, because it is so uncontroversial IME, but here it is:
Quote:
5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.
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07-21-2017 , 12:19 PM
In rooms with shufflers it's usually written as when the dealer pushes the button to open the machine.
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07-21-2017 , 01:00 PM
Dogpile on the dealer. Should have mucked (or checked/confirmed that 1 was folding/mucking and then mucked).

As played, best hand at showdown wins. Ship the pot to 1. Reconstruct or go to the cameras.

If contested, I hope that means the first floor was wrong and the pot was eventually awarded to seat 1, over the objections of seat 2. Assuming seat 2 didn't fight taking a pot with the 2nd best hand at showdown.
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07-21-2017 , 01:16 PM
Dealer had not mucked player 1s hand after 2 showed down , Player 1 pushed cards fwd face down, player 1 stood up, turned around to leave ??? Excuse me but WTF was this the dealers 1st down ever?

Guess "Best hand wins" since the cards were still retrievable long after the dealer should have mucked them.
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07-21-2017 , 01:26 PM
KITN to dealer. Hand was retrievable and the next hand hadn't started so push the pot to the best hand. Since player 2 stacked most of the pot, try to get a rough estimate at the table and withhold that while you did a surveillance review. Buy P2 dinner or something for dealers incompetence. Another KITN to dealer.

Also, thank you for including a brief description in the thread title

Edit - Depending on how far S1 walked away from the table, I could see an argument for abandonment/dead hand. I wouldn't agree with that ruling but it wouldn't shock me
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07-21-2017 , 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig4bill
When the pot is pushed the hand is over. That's always been the rule I've heard.
Maybe in some rooms, but that's definitely not the standard rule.

Some rooms may rule player 1 hand dead after he got up and left the table. But I think the majority would rule the hand live and award him the pot.

Lesson learned: tell the dealer to muck the other players hand before pushing the pot.
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07-21-2017 , 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit
Excuse me but WTF was this the dealers 1st down ever?
If you actually focused on that detail next time you played you might be surprised how often dealers don't muck hands right away especially in small stakes cash games.
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07-21-2017 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reducto
If you actually focused on that detail next time you played you might be surprised how often dealers don't muck hands right away especially in small stakes cash games.
what's the difference between "small stakes" and higher stakes? Are you saying the dealers don't give a **** when they're dealing a 2/5 game and throw procedure out the window?
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07-21-2017 , 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
what's the difference between "small stakes" and higher stakes? Are you saying the dealers don't give a **** when they're dealing a 2/5 game and throw procedure out the window?
I've heard from several dealers that they prefer to deal 1/2 games because they can autopilot there without players complaining about 'minor' mistakes. OTOH, higher stakes players don't tip better but dealers have to be more focused to prevent costly mistakes.
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07-21-2017 , 02:26 PM
The difference is that they usually don't let noobs deal higher stakes
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07-21-2017 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
what's the difference between "small stakes" and higher stakes? Are you saying the dealers don't give a **** when they're dealing a 2/5 game and throw procedure out the window?
Dealers are humans too. Sometimes they don't know correct procedure, or don't do it routinely so it becomes muscle memory like pitching, moving the button, etc., eventually become. It would say it would be unusual for a (non-beginning) dealer to use correct procedure in some games but not in others depending on stake. They either do it habitually, or they don't. On occasion I might see a very experienced dealer do things different depending on his read of the experience level of the game, but that is a very advanced move.

I had an experienced dealer (and dual rate floor) deal my low/mid stakes O8 game recently. One hand involved a sidepot where both players had the same hand, but all three players tabled at once. She clearly mis-read the hands, and went to kill one of the two sidepot hands (which should have chopped the sidepot).

The system worked as it should have - the player, knowing she knows the procedure and was about to kill his hand as a loser, interjected with a shout, she apologized and thanked him, correctly split the side pot, then quartered them for the main.

Just kidding, of course. She instead yelled at him "I know! Split...uh...I mean...chop the main." She then proceeded to kill one, then both of the sidepot players' hands, then killed the third hand as well, before chopping the side between the first two. Then paused for 5 seconds as she tried to remember what they had so she could figure out what to do with the main pot.

It was very weird. Everyone has a bad day now and then I guess.

Hmm, in retrospect, I'm not exactly sure why I am telling this story here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FWWM
The difference is that they usually don't let noobs deal higher stakes
This is simply not true in most rooms.
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07-21-2017 , 03:01 PM
This reminds me of a debate I've had with myself several times while at the table.

The situation:

I go all-in on the river. A villain calls my bet and has me covered. I table my hand and the villain throws his cards face-down toward the dealer. Now the dealer starts counting out my chips so that he knows how much to take from the villain's stack. The villain's cards are just sitting there, face-down, un-mucked. My inner dialogue is screaming, "Muck the ****ing cards already!!!" On the outside, I'm sitting there, emotionless.

Do you say anything to the dealer, along the lines of, "Dealer, please muck his cards," or do you just sit there, silently stewing, trying not to jinx anything and waiting for the situation to play itself out, hoping that nothing goes horribly sideways before you get your chips and the dealer deals the next hand?
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07-21-2017 , 03:17 PM
I usually don't do anything, because it doesn't normally lead to any problems, and most dealers both won't react well to the request, and won't learn to do it right going forward either.

If I'm feeling saucy, I will ask them to kill the hand, please.

If I'm feeling Ragu levels of saucy, I will tell them they should kill losers before pushing the pot after the hand is over, but I find this is less effective because it's not as apparent to them why this would be important if the hand isn't just sitting there in a semi-live state in a real rather than hypothetical situation.

Only if it's a new dealer, who I feel like I have a chance to get trained properly while they are still young and formative, do I mention something most of the time, and try to explain why it's important ("If you do this, you will avoid many cases of getting yelled at by the loser of the hand because you forgot to do something you're supposed to do. They will blame you, and rightly so.").
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07-21-2017 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
what's the difference between "small stakes" and higher stakes? Are you saying the dealers don't give a **** when they're dealing a 2/5 game and throw procedure out the window?
Perhaps I'm just projecting. I know I'm a lot more careful with things like clearing my hands and such when I'm dealing higher stakes games. Maybe that's wrong and I'll learn my lesson someday. In any case, I'm just saying it probably happens a lot more than you'd think and it's not just newbies.
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07-21-2017 , 04:24 PM
I once had a reg who never passed up a chance to say, "Muck that hand, dealer!"

Unfortunately, 90% of the time, he was saying this about a player who had not mucked, but rather, was playing without a chip on his cards.
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07-21-2017 , 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
what's the difference between "small stakes" and higher stakes? Are you saying the dealers don't give a **** when they're dealing a 2/5 game and throw procedure out the window?
The difference is the players don't care ..... so if the dealer isn't following the procedure the players don't speak up to get it corrected. (Even large stakes players often don't speak up but you are more likely to run into a player who cares at the higher stakes.)
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07-21-2017 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112
This reminds me of a debate I've had with myself several times while at the table.

The situation:

I go all-in on the river. A villain calls my bet and has me covered. I table my hand and the villain throws his cards face-down toward the dealer. Now the dealer starts counting out my chips so that he knows how much to take from the villain's stack. The villain's cards are just sitting there, face-down, un-mucked. My inner dialogue is screaming, "Muck the ****ing cards already!!!" On the outside, I'm sitting there, emotionless.

Do you say anything to the dealer, along the lines of, "Dealer, please muck his cards," or do you just sit there, silently stewing, trying not to jinx anything and waiting for the situation to play itself out, hoping that nothing goes horribly sideways before you get your chips and the dealer deals the next hand?
Dealer Please muck those cards is much preferable to "Muck the ****ing cards already!!!"
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