Warning: This is a little lengthy because I want to give all the details before posing question

I'm posting this hand here because I think my question is more about inter-player dynamics and moving opponent out of mental comfort zone - and less about hand strategy.

3/5 Max $500 buy

Hero: Image is fairly straightforward and solid ABC, no FPS or other 'look at me' theatrics used. Quiet and friendly, but have asked dealer to control game as action out of turn is frequent and talking while hand is in play is occuring a bit more often than I'd like. Conversation convinces one weak player to fold where I suspect he might've otherwise called - not huge pot, but definitely lost value opportunity. Stack is $1300.

V1: Worn around the edges, blue collar looking male in late 40s/early 50s. Has started with a rack and now has $1k, but hasn't moved a lot of chips into action. He looks a little uncomfortable (game size? stack size? - he's a 4-8 FLH regular and buys in 1/3 game for $100 minimum only); first time ever see him at 3/5 table. Also, he's got a little nervous ticks, he taps one chip on top of stack a lot which can be construed for check motion. But then he bets. Has done this twice tonight to other people who then mistakenly checked behind. He stops dealer and eclares, "Oh no, I'm not checking this hand." In orbit before hand in question, Villain is called for 'string raise from the BB and gets his Aces cracked for the $300. Also been drinking beer and whiskey non-stop - he never acts wasted, but he's definitely buzzed with a rosy glow. He is a "George"- tips multiple whites to dealers every hand and gives the server two reds on a $6 pint, $50 of $250 HH promo, one red to chip runner, etc. This is gonna be important in a minute.

V2: Super-tight, but not overly aggressive older Asian male, all white hair and Fu-Man-Chu beard and thick glasses. Speaks english in one or two word clips at time. Always buys in for table min of $200 and racks up if he gets $200 sugar or more...often times zips out door with $350 if he hasn't rebought. Stack is $150

Game is playing fairly soft and tight for last hour.:

MP2: V1 limps $5
SB: V2 calls $5
BB: Hero (K-7) let 'em live

Nothing noteworthy here. V1 is weak and unaggressive player, especially PF. V2 only raises AA or KK from SB, and calling the $2 doesn't tell me anything.

Flop ($15): K-K-3

V2x, Herox, V1x

Turn ($15): 7

V2 x, Hero x, V1 bets $10, V2 c, Hero c

With the nuts here and $45 in pot, curious to see river and/or let opponents DD on flush - raising is furthest thing from my mind.

River ($45): 2

V2 x, Hero x, V1...

V1 does his nervous chip tapping and then begins to slide out stack of $100. V2 erupts from his chair pointing at V1 and says something to dealer in what I assume is Chinese. Dealer calls for floor and explains. When asked, I say "I'm not sure, because it also looks like he's shuffling his chips while thinking." This is probably the worst lie I've told to date for the year and I know I might be shooting myself in the foot for an opportunity at value. But V1 make jokes to dealer about my needing to go to library when I last requested the table talk to cease.

I was pretty sure V1 was gonna be given a wide berth and Floor grants a pass with a 'warning' to be careful about his 'motions'. Floor says he can now act as he pleases since stack never actually makes it into pot. V1 then double fists two more stacks out of his racks, forcefully sets them on the table and then aggressively moves $300 over the betting line and says, "I was gonna try to be nice to you guys and only sting you for a little, but now you've made me mad and I'm gonna make you both pay for all that candy-a55 bu11s*#t!"

V2 mumbles something, points to dealer, points to player and then slams his last $140 down across the line.

I decide to Hollywood tank it for 30 secs, but V1 chimes in with "Aw, son if it takes you this long just go ahead and muck it." I don't know if he's trying to goad me into a call or what. I just smile, double-check my stack and declare I'm all in for $1300 and some change.

V1 flips over A-K and says, "Son, its a nice try. I can't throw this away when I got you beat," and then calls off. When I flip over my hand, he starts cursing about how I was trying to get him for a string bet and "it don't make no g0ddam sense."

He disgustedly peels off five bills and decides to go out for a breather and a smoke while waiting for chips. I give the server four red chips to bring him a fresh beer and another whiskey, but don't say anything about who bought it, because she's been replacing his drink all night without prompting.

V1 goes through the next two buy-ins like water and finally storms off after his QQ loses to AK. I am the direct and indirect recipient of about $400 of the additional buy-in monies.

I admit I purposely tilted him and worked to keep him lubricated - Vegas does the same thing? I contend psychological warfare is just as permissible as float-shove bluffs. Does anyone see my action as unethical or angle shooting?

Someone once said that two wrongs don't make a right.

His earlier comment didn't bother me and I was pretty sure he was gonna be given the benefit of the doubt as only V2 and I are asked by the floor about his tick...and I suspect dealer is anticipating at least one red chip and maybe two if bet is allowed to stand - I'm known in the card room as one of the biggest 'Toms' to the dealers, but that's a whole other thread debate - so the dealer isn't not motivated to lean in my direction.

I'm mostly looking to lubricate V1's chip out of his racks, because they've been otherwise pretty well locked-up and he's next biggest stack after me, where the rest of the table is hovering at $700 at most.

Im almost certain he's made a flush on the river, but have no idea he's that strong - I just chalk the $300 up to extra-bravado as he's not the most astute of players...$100 for $45? and then $300 for $45. Then $700 to protect your initial bet of $300?

Two other player each benefitted about $200 due to this newfound 'tilt' so I think they feel it helped them. He spread the rest around in bits and drams, but mostly I got him to start playing...and badly at that.

If you can tilt the guy out of his money, isn't that what you're supposed to do?

Then why did you lie to the Floor?

What else are you willing to lie about?

Not a fan of the tank-shove (it is usually very strong), but that is not my question.

I consider lying to the dealer/floor [who is relying on your information to make a correct decision] cheating.

Umm, lying, might not be the absolute correct word in the world of less than full truth vs. contrary to reality, but let's not get mired down in the semantics.

First of all, Floor asked dealer first for their version which is correct. I don't find this Floor as particularly well suited to the task, as I have seen him make other ruling with just the dealer's input and no one else, which is fine if that's what he wants to do as dealer should ideally just be motivated to 'truth' and no one particular player. But then this, and camera replay, should be the consistent standard, not just arbitrary, I'll listen to players when I see fit.

As dealer is describing V1's motion to Floor, V1 interjects and proceeds with a demonstration of his move even though V1's involvement at this point is unprompted. V2 starts saying something, and I'm not trying to sound racist, but the dealer has to translate. V1 points to me and says, "Ask him."

Now, if I say I didn't see a thing and then CRAI the river, I think I definitely come off looking like a weasel. And I can't now avoid the question and so I try to find a neutral answer, but I know the motion and episode is similar to previous, which dealer also fails to mention to Floor.

If I say it definitely looks like a check and then turn over my hand...??? I think if I do that I'm better off just mucking my hand after V2 opens and surrendering my $10 of action and the $45 pot with the best hand, letting V1 have his moment in the sun...full confidence abounding.

Hard to read that with all those acronyms.

OP, you straight out lied to the floor. You didn't angleshoot, you cheated. It's a scumbag move.

lol at this guy thinking he's gonna get a bunch of high fives from everyone telling him how genius he is.

I don't understand how it's a lie.
In the OP we learn that V makes a motion that can be construed as a check, but then bets. If it's an issue at the table, which it apparently has been, then he should have been warned that he'll be held to a check if he continues to do so. But there's no mention of this.
So OP can honestly answer that V didn't clearly check. This would be another good time to give V a warning that his actions need to be clearly stated or he will be forced to check if he does it again.
Yes, Hero can say that V tapped his chips, but it's clearly not intended to be a statement of action, and unless he's been warned, H isn't angling when claiming no knowledge.

All that said, I think it's in the best interest of the game to clarify the problem with the floor instead of just playing dumb.

1. I deal with violations the same if they will help me or hurt me.
2. While I don't find your response too bad, it would have been safer to say 'Don't ask me, I have a vested interest in the ruling'.
3. I personally don't have a huge issue with tilting a player, though a lot of people find it low class
4. I don't have that much a problem with buying a guy a drink to keep him loose, but secretly buying him a drink when you think he is losing track of how much he is drinking to impair his judgement so that you can take advantage of him seems very wrong somehow.

That's extremely questionable behavior, at best.

I agree with the above, and think it might be better for your relationship with V and his chips to offer him a drink to, you know, smooth things over.

I would never lie to help myself
and have in the past confirmed to the floor ; actions that hurt me as I was in the hand and didn't want the action to stand.

If he ordered another round I might have said to the server I got that and handed her chips but to get someone who may be driving later a drink and hide it is not cool on multiple levels

I have no issues tilting any player ; its part of the game

You lied to the floor, and you want to know if your behavior was ethical? What a dumb question.

I would give you a more detailed answer, but I'm so tilted at your misspelling of "tic" that I can't think straight.

Well played, *******. (That's what you want to hear, right?)

1. This is a line I hadn't previously considered taking. Thus, the benefit of posting on the forum: Exaudio! Comperio!...to listen, to learn.

1. I intended my post to be more along the lines of moral reflection of how questionable can means become, but still justify ends?

2. I recognize and concede in the cold light of day, that I may have actually been slightly irked by his indirect demeanor towards me with his earlier 'library' comment and extracted a vengeance in an albeit dubious manner, this includes the subsequent purchase of his drink.

3. I'll avoid digressing into debate on server and House responsibility for alcohol service.

4. Unless William Strunk or Dr. Anne Curzan is one of your parents, I would say it's very likely you're setting yourself up for failure by expecting perfect spelling, grammar, and diction with every post on this forum. Do you throw yourself to the floor in a temper tantrum every time someone ends a sentence with a preposition? Get over yourself! Or, let me be on your left and use less than the Queen's English.

It's a lie because OP told the floor:

" I'm not sure, because it also looks like he's shuffling his chips while thinking."

Then OP wrote:"This is probably the worst lie I've told to date for the year and I know I might be shooting myself in the foot for an opportunity at value."

Tapping a single chip on the top of a stack often is used as a check. But it never looks like he is shuffling his chips, because you can't shuffle chips like that. OP states he knows it's a lie, he just started to backpedal when he wasn't congratulated for it.

this is a question everyone needs to answer for themselves

when involved in a hand do I lie about hand strength etc to another player involved? sure that's poker.
all these other things
lying to floor, dealer, never.

got wrong change back do I return extra money given to me? ALWAYS
whether it be at a casino or the coffee shop or local 7-11

I sleep well at night from moral decisions

its those why did I call I knew he had it hands that keep me tossing and turning

1. V1 is grabbing top two chips of stack on sides with thumb and forefinger and lifting them up about an inch, letting the first one fall flat and then then setting the second one flat back on top - its definitely not as clear as using side of chip to tap on stack as many players do.

2. The 'lie' is that I can definitely see how some might consider it a 'checking' motion, but I do not as otherwise described above. Yes, if I was gonna say something, then saying exactly this is more honest than my initial response regardless of how Floor rules.

3. I have already conceded to other ulterior motives and understand how people see my actions as less than scrupulous...so aside from a grander mea culpa, in your mind should I be offering V1 and V2 their money back?

4. Not to deflect blame, but do you think dealer is obligated to mention previous referenced incident? And, should Floor's method of ascertaining facts also take into account that each player is gonna 'skew' their version of the story to their own self-interest?

5. Bluffing employs the same aspect of skewing a story to the player's own self interest, i.e. "I have it," when in fact they don't, but bluffing is also obviously an accepted action within the context of game play.

6. I will also concede the obvious that intentionally betting out turn to induce a check from a player in front of you is much more clearly a dishonest angle shoot...motioning with chips to feign intent to act isn't though? (example, organizing stacks in preparation to 'push across line' but not actually do so)

1. Not to go out too far on another tangent, but if player keeps exposing his hole cards where you can see even after you've warned him once or twice, is it unscrupulous to to use that info? Is it a lie to act as though you don't know what he's holding? Are you gonna ask for a seat change just to assuage any guilt you might feel?

I have told many an older or drunk player please protect your cards better I can see them.
if they continue I look the other way when I see they are going to look.

If someone asks me what I saw
my answer is I'm not saying because what if I'm wrong.

would I change seats no
would I act as thou I don't know no
its up to the floor and dealer to warn these players if it continues.
I've done my part by alerting them

I would've said 'I'm fine w/ w/e he wants to do.'

Yes it is very unethical to lie and to buy drinks for an inebriated person. You should feel a sense of shame strong enough to prohibit you from doing this.

Also you must not be a very good poker player to feel the need to play this way.

No, thats still lying, and you don't need to do it. You can simply not respond or tell the person "I can't say". Lying is wrong even in the context of talking about your hand. I look down on players who do it.

Really? You never, through your words or actions, imply your hand strength is different than it really is? Or are you going to take the pedantic stance and say that misdirection is not the same as actually saying untrue words?

The point is, there is allowed and expected misinformation within the bounds of the game, and misinformation outside the bounds of the game. Lying to a floor to get the ruling you want is way out of bounds, versus lying when asked if you made your flush.

the main part of this story that bothered me was pushing someone beyond their alcohol limits. dont do that.

now here's a guy who NEVER BLUFFS OR SEMI-BLUFFS
as that would be lying about your hand and against your principles