https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024/...vent-46491.htm

I hope this is OK to post here.

BB turned J2o face up, raiser thought the hand was over and mucked hand. BB said he didn't fold. Floor awarded pot to BB.

Yeah, i think this ruling was an epic failure.

KITNs all around

First and foremost, BB for being an angel shooting douche.
Button for releasing hand before receiving chips.
Dealer for mucking cards that should have been retrievable.
Finally, Floor for not giving BB a penalty for intentionally exposing his hand.

BTW, another player, who raised an issue with this ruling was assessed a 1 Round penalty. I believe he felt the need to speak up, since Button didn't speak English.

I responded to the tweet saying BB should have been given an option to:

A. Win hand and receive a 1 round penalty for exposing his hand.

B. Forfeit hand and receive a warning for exposing his hand.

I don't get how BB was awarded the full pot, including button's raise that was uncalled at the time. How was that any different from the Negreanu situation from early in the event*? Even Savage defended giving the whole pot to the BB with I don't understand.

Another example of why you need to maintain control of your cards until the dealer pushes you the pot.

It is different from that situation where someone folded preflop. They have to award the whole pot to someone.

Maybe award the pot to BB and give him a 3 round penalty.

I have thrown my hand face up into the center. I guess BB showed his hand and hung on to it. Definitely an error by BTN to muck his hand without the pot and the BB still holding his cards.

What is wrong with these WSOP floors etc.? Can't they deal with blatant angle shooting? Before there was a compromise ruling when Men was apparently stealing chips. This happens repeatedly and they need to have a policy to discourage this sort of thing.

Explain how it is different. They do not "have to award the whole pot to somebody". WSOP has a rule that directly addresses incidents like this.

definitely an angle and the floor should have only awarded the amount of the bb and given the raiser his raise back. also should give a penalty to the bb for exposing cards before play has concluded as this is not allowed in tournies. dealer could have also proactively asked bb if he was folding to prevent the raiser from being angled but if it happened really quickly I can see it being too fast for that to happen.

While Dealers aren't supposed to be in the intent business 'by rule', there's nothing that would prevent them from adding information to a Rule #1 discussion should the Floor be leaning that way.

1) B should've held cards until pot pushed .. yes, for sure

2) We certainly can lean towards BB taking advantage of B early muck as a bit of an Angle. But how can we determine that this was BB intention from the git-go? Is it really an Angle to ask for the pot holding the last Live Hand?

3) The BB SHOULD NOT have been awarded the full raise. This is the same as the DNegs spot .. Player 'unknowingly' mucks before action/hand is complete with an uncalled bet in front of them. Only the BB value of the bet should be in the pot.

4) Certainly BB gets a warning at minimum about exposing their holding before the hand is complete.

So BB gets to keep their initial 2bb and pick up another 1.5bb for a 3.5bb 'value'.


Let's take this up a notch and put it on the River .. BB check .. B bet .. BB picks cards up, flashes them to B but certainly can't win the pot and B prematurely Mucks. Who gets the pot? Would we consider that an Angle if BB requests the pot? I don't think so .. why does the value of the pot change our attitude?



On a side note: PGo stream, folded to the Blinds .. SB tosses single silent over-chip, Dealer announces 'Call' .. BB tosses cards forward .. Dealer moves cards but doesn't Muck them. UTG then speaks up and says BB thought it was a raise, call the Floor .. Floor gives cards back to BB who then hits Flop and ends up winning pot with an extra 20K that SB bet on Flop.

So it's OK to give BB their hand back because they weren't facing escalated action? I didn't think so .. GL

The dealer not mucking the hand leaves them 'clearly identifiable' so they should be given back. Perhaps speak to them afterwards about proper procedures (but it's probably a temp dealer, nearing the end of the series, I wouldn't expect much in the way of corrective action). Shame on the SB for not raising (or folding) preflop.

I agree with everything else you said 100%.

In January 2023, Zanot won a $6.4 million Pai Gow Progressive jackpot at Flamingo Las Vegas, just a tad more than what second place will pay in the Main Event.

Dealer not killing the hand and calling the floor is 100% correct. That way if the floor rules the hand live, the cards are still retrievable. I would say the only thing they did incorrectly was leave SB's entire 30k in front of him. They should have pushed the 5k chip back to make it more clear that it was just a call.

My guess would be the dealer in the J2o hand also took the BB's action as a fold and killed BTN's hand/mucked the stub and started pushing the pot to the BTN before BB objected (which obv would still be incorrect to do). Plus, sometimes when people muck on standard tables, the card naturally land in the muck and can become unidentifiable without the dealer doing anything. A bit more difficult for that to happen on those comically large feature tables. Not sure if you've noticed, but many dealers have to stand up any time they push a pot or even bring bets in. They are massive.

I think the floor could have ruled the tabled J2o was a fold and awarded the pot to the opener in the interest of fairness. Is the BB really going to play the whole hand face up?

It would be different if the BB showed his hand when he was facing action on the river. In that case he might actually be considering a call.

Sometimes you need to read between the lines a little and not just go with the letter of the law. In any case the opener's bet should have been returned even if you're going with the technical interpretation of the rules.

Award the bb the pot and publicly mock him forever over angling and giving up all his integrity to win 4 bbs.

I thought exposing your hand when only 2 people are in the hand was allowed. is it not? i knew you couldnt do it with 3 or more still in.

my opinion is once he said "i have nothing you win" thats the equivalent of folding and pot should go to button

It is not permitted in TDA rules. It is commonly considered acceptable in cash games (when heads up).

Very few rooms have a rule that a verbal concession is binding.

Back to the SB/BB spot ..

58: Non-Standard Folds
Any time before the end of the final betting round, folding in turn if there’s no bet to you (ex: facing a check or first to act post-flop) or folding out of turn are binding folds subject to penalty. See also 15-B.


This was a gift Ruling. I'm not saying it's a bad Rule #1 spot to give them back, but it's not the correct way to handle it per TDA. We have to admit we are letting BB off the hook for not understanding the action.

Yes, the Dealer could've/should've 'fixed' the Call chips, but the Dealer did say Call, which is all the BB is supposed to need beyond knowing the 'single-silent-chip rule'. GL

I assume you mean something other than "fold".

I meant at showdown, which you are right was not the actual OP situation

When facing a river bet I don’t think it is germane anyway. The only way you fold is by releasing your cards forward or by saying fold. The rest is table talk.

This has gotten out of hand at the wsop. Give the angle shooter the pot, but give him a 5 round penalty for showing his cards. Instead they gave a penalty to yhe guy who complained about the ruling.They are too friendly to cheaters and angle shooters and that is part of the reason for the final table mess.