A guy I know was seated next to me yesterday and he kept getting up before his Big Blind which then fell to me. I asked him why and he said, "BB is a terrible position, but by having a smoke I come back and pay up my BB/SB in a better table position." Is that angle shooting? Should I say anything about it if so?

Not an angle, dumb thing to do. At a 9-handed table, he is paying 1.5BB for 6 hands (gives up BB, SB, Button) for an average of .25BB per hand.

Everyone else pays 1.5BB for 9 hands, or .166BB per hand. Even bigger discrepancy short handed.

Not to mention how many fewer hands he's getting per hour...

Definition of angle? It could qualify for some. In some rooms this type of person could get a warning for taking advantage of this 'too many' times. How many is too many? Not defined. Punishment? Not defined. Will anything happen unless the table complains? Probably not.

IMO at 'worst' this Player would be told that they are abusing the posting policy of the room and that they need to sit out complete orbits before coming back into the game ... on their BB.

The math shown above is true, but apparently this Player 'values' position over BB/hand. One thing to consider is that most rooms will not pay a table share to any Player with a missed blind . Yes, that's a long shot for sure, but don't think that at some of the Players at the table will have a 'serve's him right' attitude when he gets shut out by the casino in the payouts. GL

If he is a losing player it may not matter much, but if he is a winning player he is just shooting himself in the foot.

I really have no basis to back this up, but did do a little research and saw some numbers that suggest a good player will lose 40bb/100 in bb and 20bb/100 in sb, or .4 and .2 bb respectively. If that is the case and I use my hourly of $24 at 1/3 then I am making 2.4 bb per orbit if I am getting in 30 hands per hour. Of course this could fluctuate and you could be getting upwards of 40 hands per hour, but that seems like a lot, in which you would be making 1.8 bb per orbit.

If you break down your per orbit win rates I would assume they look something like this at 30/40 hands per hour:
UTG: .25/.2
UTG1: .25/.2
UTG2: .3/.25
UTG3: .4/.3
HJ: .5/.4
CO: .6/.5
Button: .7/.55
SB: -0.2
BB: -0.4

In both cases you are essentially wiping out your losses in the blinds with your button win rate or slightly profiting. However, if you skip the blinds you are never the button, so you are now putting in 1 bb blind and .33-.5 bb dead from the cutoff. I do not see how you can be profitable in that situation. So you have essentially gone from a 4 hand section of the table where you should be probably making 0.5+ bb per orbit and turning it into a section of the table where I can not see a way that you are profiting.

Like I said, outside of the BB and SB win rates I pulled these numbers out of my ass, but I would assume the winrates would increase as you get closer to the button. Even if you said you had the same win rate from every position in my scenarios that would be between .34 and .43 bb per position outside of the blinds. So you would be wiping out your loses in the blinds with your wins in the CO and Button, but by not playing the button and posting the CO I just do not see how this could be a profitable endeavor.

In reality, the vast majority of recreational live poker players are so bad at playing from the blinds, that they would definitely lose significantly less money if they folded every single small blind and probably get the same results by folding every single BB as they would get by playing them.

I have zero data to proof this, but I doubt that the average player in a standard high rake 1/2 or 1/3 live game even wins money from the button. At least not a significant amount. If something like $150 leaves the table through rake and tips per hour, there aren’t many games where all of that is covered by one or two really bad players. And then you usually have a couple good players that take money out of the game, too.

The average player would benefit financially from getting up before the BB hits them and never sit back down again. The guy missing three hands an orbit won’t do as good as the guy who never comes back but probably still better than the next guy who plays all 9 hands an orbit.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that this particular player does do better for his bottom line by sitting out the SB, BB, and button just to post in the CO, but it would not be profitable for a winning player.

I suppose said player could be a losing player that breaks even on the button and CO, but loses more than the 1.33-1.5 bb that they must post in the CO if they actually play hands in the blinds.

I do this, but only if I have to go to the bathroom or some other errand. If I *am* going to leave the table for any reason then I'll do so from my BB, but certainly never just forfeit every BB so I can play from the CO.

No its not an angle shoot just a dirtbag thing to do.
If it were me after the 3rd time of him doing this I'd tell him to to cut it out or I'm calling the floor.

While being OOP makes it more difficult to play especially against good players, missing hands just to be in position is never a winning strategy and bad for the game

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

IMHO, not angle shooting.

Most players would rather post blinds in a more advantageous position. If asked, I think the smartest players would prefer to post in later position. Of course, there is a cost. In this case the cost is missing 3 (free) hands, 2 in bad position and 1 in the best. There is also the cost of the dead SB. Most good/winning players aren't willing to make that deal every orbit.

There have also been threads about whether 'buying the button' is worth it. Similar, but a player misses what would have been their BB (1 hand) and posts (BB + dead SB) in worst position. Again, I think most good/winning players aren't interested in making that deal every orbit.


Is the player actually doing this every orbit, or a couple times per hour? I don't think you have an "angle" complaint.

Fascinating comments fellows. Great stats information. OK, I didn't want to make a big deal out of it. He's losing out on hands so it's not smart at all. Appreciate the analysis.

The real benefit comes from taking a short, rejuvenating break for a few minutes while skipping the blinds and the button.

I will 100% always take a break after folding my UTG hand, it makes the most sense.

I will usually post if late position when coming back, if I am early position I will wait a hand or 2 to come back.

Everybody: Poker is dead
This thread: Paying 1.5bbs for 6 hands is more profitable than 1.5bbs for 9 hands!

For a lot of players, paying 1.5BB for 0 hands would be more profitable than 1.5BB for 100 hands. Folding 100% of hands costs ~5BB/hour, that’s probably above median winrate.

This is why I love my room having time rake. I know its not the blinds but, sure homie, walk around for 30 mins to dodge that blind, then pay another $8 per half hour. Enjoy them hands. XD xd

This is neither an angle shoot, nor unethical or even rude.

Let the man lose his money the way he wants.

So you want for that guy to pay the poker room for his seat that stays unoccupied which means he can’t lose any money at the table?

If all 8 other players do that, you pay $16/hour to sit at a table that’s empty except for you and the dealer. That might be a little bit boring..

FWIW, I can’t remember ever encountering one of these “walkers” that miss 20-50% of hands who was a solid winning player. At least in my experience, they are usually not massive losers but still net donating regulars. No crusher would ever do that.

Not sure why people are saying it's rude.

I clearly dont WANT this. I'm just laughing at his utter ******ation.

I do it all the time, but not for strategic purposes. As a smoker with a bad back, I go for a 5min walk every 45m-1hr and usually right before my BB. Of course when I come back I'll blindly post no matter what position I'm in unless I only have to wait one hand to come back in on the BB.

The whole idea of doing this strategically as an angle seems ridiculous to me. Yes you're "playing your blind" from a better position, but you're paying 1.5bb with .5bb dead in the hand that you return on, and overall you're paying blinds more frequently as compared to the number of hands you're seeing overall. Plus if you're a winning player for even a decent winrate you're costing yourself more money by seeing fewer hands than what you're gaining by posting in better position with .5bb dead. To me this sounds like the most ridiculous nit-logic that i've ever heard.

Edit: Something that I forgot to mention, which is pretty important when thinking about this. If you're doing this constantly as "strategy", you're also giving away your button every orbit too since every place i've played in does not let you return on the button.