Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-26-2017, 02:33 AM   #1
Jkpoker10
adept
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 924
Is this an angle?

Hey quick question regarding an action another player took in a tournament. I was playing in a tourney series at borgata a few months back and a reg proceeded to fake toss chips in on a big river bet I made and looked at me to see if I made any type of facial expression.

Is this allowed in tournament play? He honestly looked like he was throwing the chips in as he cut them out and made motion to throw chips in. I would like to know if this is allowed and not grimey to do in a tourney? In the hand I had the nuts and he still called as Iím sure I looked nervous. I feel this is an extremely smart stray to employ as Iím sure some players would give off tells maybe.

I feel this is an angle and will be frowned upon by 2+2ers so just wanted to check if this sort of action is ok? Iíve never seen it done before in a tournament. Also the dealers said nothing about it so I assume itís not against the rules.
Jkpoker10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 09:18 AM   #2
BigBlue56
veteran
 
BigBlue56's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Garden State
Posts: 2,502
Re: Is this an angle?

Sounds bad, regardless of the type of game or stakes.

Depending on the situation, I'm asking the dealer to address it, or asking the dealer to call the floor.



To answer the question... I'm calling this an angle. It's with the expectation that most of the thread ends up revolving around the definitions that people have about which behaviors are angles. No honest and rational players will think it's acceptable to throw in fake chips, hoping to get you to expose and then make their decision.
BigBlue56 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 09:21 AM   #3
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 22,513
Re: Is this an angle?

Yes, this is an angle shot.

There are rooms where any forward motion of chips is considered a call, whether there is a release or not. However, it is often tolerated. The one time that comes to mind is a few years ago in the WSOP main Event where a player pushed his stack in, then pulled it back out on camera. It was ruled to be allowed, which generate howls of protests.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 10:27 AM   #4
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,141
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Yes, this is an angle shot.

There are rooms where any forward motion of chips is considered a call, whether there is a release or not. However, it is often tolerated. The one time that comes to mind is a few years ago in the WSOP main Event where a player pushed his stack in, then pulled it back out on camera. It was ruled to be allowed, which generate howls of protests.
The floor got that one wrong, but once he made his decision, he had to stick with it. In the follow conversations, when players were asking if specific types of motions were allowed, he said no (and what they were describing was what happened). It was a bad call.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 10:32 AM   #5
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,141
Re: Is this an angle?

Just ask the dealer 'is pump faking allowed here?' It clarifies the situation and calls out the player.

It is only an angle because, as mentioned, many rooms use a forward motion rule, so some players will react.

for example, in a room with a betting line strictly enforced, where they announce the betting line rule before each tournament, it is common for players to cut out calling or raising chips, put them in their hand, and move towards the line but not cross it. i do not consider this an angle, as the action in not ambiguous and everyone knows what the constitutes a bet. This is, in my opinion, no more than another form of table talk.

If, in your example, everyone knows that forward motion is not a bet, then this is not an angle. Making a clear non-action to induce a tell is not an angle. Making an ambiguous or simulated action to induce a tell or action is an angle.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 12:09 PM   #6
MJ88
veteran
 
MJ88's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,858
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Just ask the dealer 'is pump faking allowed here?'....
In the old days, "pump-faking" a bet to draw a reaction was fairly common, considered part of the game, and not an angle. In those days, there were no betting lines, and chips actually had to be "released into the pot" to constitute a binding bet. Today, with tournament poker, much stricter rules (and much nittier players), many would probably consider it an angle (or a bet).
MJ88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 12:24 PM   #7
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,003
Re: Is this an angle?

Yes, it's an angle.

If I ever see anyone doing this, which is pretty rare, then I snap call the clock on them.
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 12:35 PM   #8
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,569
Re: Is this an angle?

It depends on what "He honestly looked like he was throwing the chips in as he cut them out and made motion to throw chips in" actually looks like.
Didace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2017, 02:56 PM   #9
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,141
Re: Is this an angle?

I consider angles to b usually of three different types

1. Actions outside of normal poker activity designed to get information-pump fakes or certain types of table talk fall into this category
2. Actions or declarations designed to hide your true intent-Claiming that you threw in the wrong sized chip, throwing in a raise then declaring 'call' fall into these types of angles
3. Actions designed to use ambiguity in the rules to free ride your action-For example, when facing an all-in, saying 'OK', then claiming you didn't call when the tabled hand beats your hand.

Of all these, i consider only the third class to be a true angle shooting. The first two are much more grey shaded in terms of whether or not they are acceptable misdirection or scummy angleshooting.

The only reason why I would consider the OP's example angle shooting is that it uses ambiguity in the rules (some rules consider this a bet, some do not) to gain information that they are not entitled to. If there is no ambiguity (for example, if they announce at the beginning of the tournament exactly what is and is not a bet), then this is not an angle.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 12:04 AM   #10
Jkpoker10
adept
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 924
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
It depends on what "He honestly looked like he was throwing the chips in as he cut them out and made motion to throw chips in" actually looks like.
He legit motioned like he was going to toss chips in. Hate to say it but Iím def adding to my arsenal when in a tough spot and wanna try to find a reaction. I feel it would be really hard to get called out on
Jkpoker10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 09:55 AM   #11
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,141
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkpoker10 View Post
He legit motioned like he was going to toss chips in. Hate to say it but Iím def adding to my arsenal when in a tough spot and wanna try to find a reaction. I feel it would be really hard to get called out on
Please don't. While in some rooms and some situations it might not be considered scummy, there are lots of rooms will this will be considered unethical. And it is always cheesy.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 03:03 PM   #12
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,569
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkpoker10 View Post
He legit motioned like he was going to toss chips in.
But what does this mean? Did he count out a "bet", pick it up, and then just move it around a little bit? Or did he put his arm way out in front and do a pump fake? Just because you thought he looked like he was going to bet doesn't make it an angle.
Didace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 04:56 PM   #13
applesauce123
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 338
Re: Is this an angle?

If you want a fold it is a good spot to angle back. Say something like "That's a call, right?"
applesauce123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 07:10 PM   #14
madlex
Custom User Title
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,649
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
To answer the question... I'm calling this an angle. It's with the expectation that most of the thread ends up revolving around the definitions that people have about which behaviors are angles. No honest and rational players will think it's acceptable to throw in fake chips, hoping to get you to expose and then make their decision.
You misread his post. The other player didn't throw in fake chips but faked to throw in real chips. The situation you described is an absolute no-no, probably everywhere in the world and might get you disqualified from the tournament immediately.

What the guy did here is called "pump-faking" (from the basketball term). Some rooms allow players to do it, others will warn about it one or multiple times and some rooms consider it a call under the forward motion rule. Doing it in a room that doesn't punish those shenanigans definitely qualifies as an angle.
madlex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 07:50 PM   #15
BigBlue56
veteran
 
BigBlue56's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Garden State
Posts: 2,502
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
You misread his post. The other player didn't throw in fake chips but faked to throw in real chips. The situation you described is an absolute no-no, probably everywhere in the world and might get you disqualified from the tournament immediately.

What the guy did here is called "pump-faking" (from the basketball term). Some rooms allow players to do it, others will warn about it one or multiple times and some rooms consider it a call under the forward motion rule. Doing it in a room that doesn't punish those shenanigans definitely qualifies as an angle.
LOL. Guilty.

But my feelings are pretty much the same in this case. I know what pump faking is, and stand by my comments. No honest and rational players will think it's acceptable to <insert pump fake, or other actions> hoping to get you to expose and then make their decision.
BigBlue56 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 09:28 PM   #16
BDHarrison
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,254
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
What the guy did here is called "pump-faking" (from the basketball term). Some rooms allow players to do it, others will warn about it one or multiple times and some rooms consider it a call under the forward motion rule. Doing it in a room that doesn't punish those shenanigans definitely qualifies as an angle.
Some rooms will rule differently depending on the degree of motion. (Some rooms will rule differently depending on who is the floor.) I think there was a High Stakes Poker episode that had some sort of debate on forward motion and Mike Matusow was demonstrating what he considered was enough and not enough to constitute a bet. When you have people arguing about how forward of a motion is actually a forward motion, that makes me think the rule is flawed.

The forward motion rule seems invented to encourage pump-faking.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 12:19 AM   #17
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,141
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
You misread his post. The other player didn't throw in fake chips but faked to throw in real chips. The situation you described is an absolute no-no, probably everywhere in the world and might get you disqualified from the tournament immediately.

What the guy did here is called "pump-faking" (from the basketball term). Some rooms allow players to do it, others will warn about it one or multiple times and some rooms consider it a call under the forward motion rule. Doing it in a room that doesn't punish those shenanigans definitely qualifies as an angle.
BigBlue was having flashbacks to this thread

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...ght=lucky+chip
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 01:12 PM   #18
Davino
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Davino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 6,549
Re: Is this an angle?

It is 100% an angle AND is one of the types of behaviors that can make poker a ****ty experience. Jesus Christ, such scummy behavior. I would consider knocking the guy out that did this.

Last edited by dinesh; 11-28-2017 at 01:27 PM.
Davino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 05:59 PM   #19
Alpha Fish
temp-banned
 
Alpha Fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,165
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkpoker10 View Post
He legit motioned like he was going to toss chips in. Hate to say it but Iím def adding to my arsenal when in a tough spot and wanna try to find a reaction. I feel it would be really hard to get called out on
pump fake at the Borg is a call. next time call a floor and ask for a ruling (which might be different cause you got a brain dead floor or shift, but at least you raised enough stink that scumbag will think twice before trying it next time)

and please don't be that guy
Alpha Fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 08:35 PM   #20
Jkpoker10
adept
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 924
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Fish View Post
pump fake at the Borg is a call. next time call a floor and ask for a ruling (which might be different cause you got a brain dead floor or shift, but at least you raised enough stink that scumbag will think twice before trying it next time)

and please don't be that guy
Nah true. I feel it’s hard to say it’s a call though unless player honestly moves whole arm and fakes tossing chips in an obvious manner. I feel there is ways to
Shuffle chips and make it look like you might call like handling right amount of
Chips to see reaction.

This guy didn’t pump too terrible that it was recognized by dealer. He shuffled the chips and took maybe 3 higher value chips and looked at me and literally made a tossing motion but didn’t toss the chips in. I hate to say it but it was def a smart move by him and something a real reg would do (even if unethical) bc the dealer didn’t notice or even seem to care.
Jkpoker10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2017, 07:29 PM   #21
Hotrodsather
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkpoker10 View Post
Hey quick question regarding an action another player took in a tournament. I was playing in a tourney series at borgata a few months back and a reg proceeded to fake toss chips in on a big river bet I made and looked at me to see if I made any type of facial expression.

Is this allowed in tournament play? He honestly looked like he was throwing the chips in as he cut them out and made motion to throw chips in. I would like to know if this is allowed and not grimey to do in a tourney? In the hand I had the nuts and he still called as Iím sure I looked nervous. I feel this is an extremely smart stray to employ as Iím sure some players would give off tells maybe.

I feel this is an angle and will be frowned upon by 2+2ers so just wanted to check if this sort of action is ok? Iíve never seen it done before in a tournament. Also the dealers said nothing about it so I assume itís not against the rules.
It is not technically against the rules but different places have different rules and way they would react to this, from a simple-not against the rules to a penalty if they keep it up, though ****ty and dumb I personally believe if you are so dumb that you fall for this **** you deserve it. I have become very adept at catching this nonsense instantly and have been able to reverse angle a lot of these guys. Example, I flop trips turn quads(I have 10,8 Board 88K,8,3) V bets 40 I go all in for 120 knowing he has a K, he thinks asks if I have the 8 or if I am bluffingI stay silent and he says-well, shows his cards and says good hand. I realize the second he flips his cards what he is doing and say, dammit, hold my cards up to look at them like I got caught bluffing...then say, wait, is that a call or what? before the dealer can say anything I start announcing it as a fold. He folded, that's a fold. Trying to sound desperate but not too much. He grins and declares a call, I confirm a call and say "Oh good because I have quads." Dude was not happy... I love reversing angles and I love nailing people on technicallities.
Hotrodsather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 08:43 PM   #22
VBAces
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,940
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsather View Post
He grins and declares a call, I confirm a call and say "Oh good because I have quads." Dude was not happy... I love reversing angles and I love nailing people on technicallities.
In other words, you are an angle shooter and proud of it
VBAces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 11:21 PM   #23
albedoa
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,529
Re: Is this an angle?

lol get out if you have a problem with what he did.
albedoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 11:36 PM   #24
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,141
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VBAces View Post
In other words, you are an angle shooter and proud of it
1) it really isn't much of an angle. You are misrepresenting your hand strength by advocating an action opposite of what you want. That is classic poker misdirection.

2) Even if it was an angle, you are taking advantage of a guy who was trying to angle shoot you (exposing your cards and saying good hand is almost definitely an angle). He used villains ploy against him
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2017, 01:08 PM   #25
callipygian
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 19,319
Re: Is this an angle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
He used villains ploy against him
There are better ways to solve this.

Angleshooting the angleshooter just doubles the amount of angleshooting at the table. And assuming angleshooters have the most experience at angleshooting, you just set yourself up for future "payback" as he'll go research even better ways to angleshoot you, and start an arms race that you shouldn't want to compete in.

Just pause and ask the dealer to clarify. The angleshooter is punished because you take his money.
callipygian is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online