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Old 06-07-2014, 09:54 PM   #1
Ephixa
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am I wrong in any universe here?

I'll preface this by saying I don't play a ton of live but I've been g live on and off for 3 years and I can't imagine I'm in the wrong here but I wanted to get a second opinion.

Also sorry in advance for terrible formatting, I'm still in the tournament so writing this on my phone.

Playing a low stakes live tournament and I'm on the button, dealer starts dealing, first card is dealt and it bounces off the button and I say that card flashed it was a black face card he looks at me and deadpans "so what" and continues dealing, thus kinda puzzled me for a second and before the first dealing orbit is finished I ask him if he's serious he says "yeah what does it matter if you saw if you don't know exactly what it was" I tell him I know it was a black face card that narrows it down quite a bit. He then asks the player(it is very obvious that its one of her first time playing) do you have a black face card she replies yes but I like it. Dealer says "see doesn't matter" at this point I laugh and ask him if he's serious again, and then he just yells for the floor and continues dealing (???). Floor finally comes over and dealer says to him "this player thinks he saw one of her cards but doesn't know what exactly it was" and at this point I say I know it was a black face card but I don't know exactly what one and then dealer pipes in "yeah you don't know exactly what it is you could look at your hand and then guess someone has a black face card and you'd be right half the time" at this point I have no idea if this guy's ****ing with me with some elaborate it's 50/50 you either have aces or you don't logic but I then explain to the floor that it was the first card out of the deck and I mentioned it immediately but he kept dealing, at this point the floor turns to the dealer asks if I mentioned it immediately and he says yes and the floor declares it a misdeal. And now the entire table starts berating me for angling saying it doesn't matter etc mocking me for saying it narrows it down even if I don't know exactly what card it does and basically tells me hey if you ever see one of my cards it's all good just keep playing it doesn't matter

Was I out of line/wrong at any point here? Should I quit playing here? Should I just keep playing here and try to see as many people's hole cards as I can because it doesn't matter(not serious)?
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:45 PM   #2
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Originally Posted by Ephixa View Post
the floor turns to the dealer asks if I mentioned it immediately and he says yes and the floor declares it a misdeal.

Was I out of line/wrong at any point here? Should I quit playing here? Should I just keep playing here and try to see as many people's hole cards as I can because it doesn't matter(not serious)?
Based on the floor person's ruling, you were correct in everything that you did/said.

There are a lot of idiots in this world. It is important to get used to it.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:07 PM   #3
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You were fine. Thank god the floor realized that.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:20 PM   #4
AngusThermopyle
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

You were right in 99% of the universes.

Apparently the dealer's and some of your tablemates' universes are among the other 1%.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:36 AM   #5
Topcat
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

As a player I would be very annoyed with the OP if he causes me to give up on a good card.
If I see a flashed Ace, I would not point it out. Not because I want to use that information, (70% of the time I fold preflop anyway), but because I would assume that player may want to keep that ace rather than have a misdeal.
Of course speak up if you see a flashed 3d. That player probable thank you for it.
There is no good reason to speak out. Lets assume you get delt AA, would you then speak out and request a misdeal just because you saw a black picture card?

Last edited by Topcat; 06-08-2014 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 06:24 AM   #6
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
As a player I would be very annoyed with the OP if he causes me to give up on a good card.
If I see a flashed Ace, I would not point it out. Not because I want to use that information, (70% of the time I fold preflop anyway), but because I would assume that player may want to keep that ace rather than have a misdeal.
Of course speak up if you see a flashed 3d. That player probable thank you for it.
There is no good reason to speak out.

First, it's only a misdeal if it's one of the first two cards off the deck. If a card is exposed by the dealer's pitch (or more likely, the player's hands trying to 'catch' the cards), the card is retrieved and becomes the first burn card. After finishing the deal, the dealer gives what would have been the first burn card to the player to replace the one that got exposed.

Secondly, the "rules" you have arbitrarily created for yourself as to whether or not you say something are precisely why you should say something EVERY TIME. It shoudln't be up to you to make a choice, and it shoudln't be up to the player to say "Nah, I want to keep this card" as it sets up free-roll opportunities.

Quote:
Lets assume you get delt AA, would you then speak out and request a misdeal just because you saw a black picture card?
Lastly, yes.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:57 AM   #7
albedoa
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
As a player I would be very annoyed with the OP if he causes me to give up on a good card.
If I see a flashed Ace, I would not point it out. Not because I want to use that information, (70% of the time I fold preflop anyway), but because I would assume that player may want to keep that ace rather than have a misdeal.
Of course speak up if you see a flashed 3d. That player probable thank you for it.
There is no good reason to speak out. Lets assume you get delt AA, would you then speak out and request a misdeal just because you saw a black picture card?
Maybe this is satire.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:08 AM   #8
dalerobk2
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

OP was in the right, but 99% of the time I just don't make a big deal of this kind of thing at a low stakes game. People don't understand the rules and delaying the game/annoying novice players is pretty bad for the game. Unless something directly involves you and is really significant, then you're better off letting this kind of thing go almost always.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:38 AM   #9
vazdog33
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

In THIS universe you are correct.

There is a parallel universe in which they deal the cards face up on the floor. So you'd be way out of line there.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:54 AM   #10
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

You were right to point it out according to the TDA rules. The floor was wrong to declare it a misdeal. If there was no substantial action, the card becomes the burn card and exposed to all and the flop burn card goes to the button. If there was substantial action, the hand has to continue with the "exposed" card.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:08 AM   #11
albedoa
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
You were right to point it out according to the TDA rules. The floor was wrong to declare it a misdeal. If there was no substantial action, the card becomes the burn card and exposed to all and the flop burn card goes to the button. If there was substantial action, the hand has to continue with the "exposed" card.
The flashed card was was the first card off the deck, pitched to the SB.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:39 AM   #12
QuadFlopper
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
The flashed card was was the first card off the deck, pitched to the SB.

Doesn't matter.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:50 AM   #13
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

Yes, it does.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:51 AM   #14
albedoa
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Doesn't matter.
Enlighten us.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:01 AM   #15
psandman
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalerobk2 View Post
OP was in the right, but 99% of the time I just don't make a big deal of this kind of thing at a low stakes game. People don't understand the rules and delaying the game/annoying novice players is pretty bad for the game. Unless something directly involves you and is really significant, then you're better off letting this kind of thing go almost always.
The problem is that if a dealer is this far out of line from how to correctly deal .... you have no idea what else is coming down the road. This dealer either really has no clue or knows better but thought they could get away with this sort of nonsense. If its the former well there really isn't much you can do. But if its the latter you have served notice to the dealer that they are going to have to do this right because you aren't going to let it go.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:10 AM   #16
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

I agree with the floors decision. I was at the same table yesterday. It was the first card dealt. A player saw it flashed and brought it to light. I believe that dealer was newer. He seemed new as I had never seen him deal there before. With that said, you were correct in pointing it out. Doesn't matter if it was the exact card or not, a black face card is one of 6 cards.

Anytime the sb is dealt a card that is shown and it is the first card dealt, it is a mis deal.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:21 AM   #17
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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I agree with the floors decision. I was at the same table yesterday. It was the first card dealt. A player saw it flashed and brought it to light. I believe that dealer was newer. He seemed new as I had never seen him deal there before. With that said, you were correct in pointing it out. Doesn't matter if it was the exact card or not, a black face card is one of 6 cards.
It doesn't matter whether the player can identify it all. A p;layer has no reason to falsly claim to have seen the card. If he hasn't seen it he gains nothing. Even if it was a card that wouldn't cause a misdeal ... just a replacement .... if the player is lying and it didn't really flash ... what has he gained? If a player says it flashed it flashed and there is no reason to even ask him what it was.
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Old 06-08-2014, 12:16 PM   #18
QuadFlopper
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
Enlighten us.
Most casinos do not have that rule any more. The first card of the deck is treated as any other card dealt and the SB should have the first burn card instead, if first card was flashed.

Now it's your turn, enlighten us to what is special with the first card of the deck.....
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Old 06-08-2014, 12:41 PM   #19
psandman
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Originally Posted by QuadFlopper View Post
Most casinos do not have that rule any more. The first card of the deck is treated as any other card dealt and the SB should have the first burn card instead, if first card was flashed.

Now it's your turn, enlighten us to what is special with the first card of the deck.....
Really. I don't know of any room that doesn't have that time anymore. Perhaps it is true that some room for rid of the rule.... but that would be the exception

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Old 06-08-2014, 12:44 PM   #20
JDiamond364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadFlopper View Post
Most casinos do not have that rule any more.
This simply is not true.

But since you're in Europe, who knows?
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:15 PM   #21
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

If you saw the card and no one else did then keep it to yourself and use the information to your advantage in the hand.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:49 PM   #22
albedoa
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadFlopper View Post
Now it's your turn, enlighten us to what is special with the first card of the deck.....
I wasn't really expecting to be enlightened about the popularity of TDA in Sweden.

Last edited by albedoa; 06-08-2014 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:35 PM   #23
Jigsaw
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
The flashed card was was the first card off the deck, pitched to the SB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadFlopper View Post
Doesn't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
Yes, it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
Enlighten us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadFlopper View Post
Most casinos do not have that rule any more. The first card of the deck is treated as any other card dealt and the SB should have the first burn card instead, if first card was flashed.

Now it's your turn, enlighten us to what is special with the first card of the deck.....

Okay.

Quote:
34: Misdeals

A: Misdeals include but are not necessarily limited to: 1) 2 or more boxed cards on the initial deal; 2) first card dealt to the wrong seat; 3) cards dealt to a seat not entitled to a hand; 4) a seat entitled to a hand is dealt out; 5) In stud, if any of the players’ 2 down cards are exposed by dealer error; 6) In flop games, if either of the first 2 cards dealt off the deck or any other 2 downcards are exposed by dealer error. Players may be dealt 2 consecutive cards on the button. House standards apply for draw games (ex: lowball).

B: If a misdeal is declared, the re-deal is an exact re-play: the button does not move, no new players are seated, and limits stay the same. Cards are dealt to players on penalty or who were not at their seats for the original deal, and their hands are killed after the re-deal. The original deal and re-deal count as one hand for a player on penalty, not two.

C: If substantial action occurs, a misdeal cannot be declared and the hand must proceed.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:40 PM   #24
Davino
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
You were right in 99% of the universes.

Apparently the dealer's and some of your tablemates' universes are among the other 1%.
this
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:54 PM   #25
QuadFlopper
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Re: am I wrong in any universe here?

The TDA should be updated in my point of view. No point of misdeal if only one card is exposed, no matter if first or second card dealt. Think many casinos around the world do not use the TDA vesrion of poker rules....
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