I knew you would open this thread based on the title. Now all you kind people get to tell me #1. Am I a Jerk and #2. How big of a Jerk am I?

Okay, so I’m playing a crazy $2/5 $100 max bet poker game at a casino and the bets are flying like crazy, so it’s not crazy to think you’re getting called every time you bet. This kind gentleman donated about $2K to the game thus far into the session and he decided to open for $65 from UTG+1 for the 100th time in a row. One player behind him calls, I raise to $165 on the button with QKos because it’s obv way ahead of both of their ranges. They both call... flop comes A37 with two diamonds. It checks to me, I bet $100. The philanthropist folds from UTG+1 and the lady to my immediate right calls. Turn is another 7, she checks, I max bet $100 again, she raises to $200, I call (because **** it?!?!?).

Before the river card comes I push a $100 stack about 2-3 inches from the betting line signaling to her I would call pretty much any river bet. The river was another Ace and it was clear to me I was dead in the water... she leads out and bets $100 and shows A3 and I look at the dealer and say “I didn’t call”. Dealer insists he saw me push my stack forward to which I said I never touched the stack on the river, so no forward motion and no verbal action. He may have saw my turn action and thought I was doing that on the river after her action. From my perspective, the lady got excited because she had a boat in a huge pot and she assumed I was going to call. Everyone at the table thought I was angle shooting and generally being a scumbag. So what say ye, 2+2? Scumbag or nay?

And yes I know, if I didn’t push a stack forward on the turn it would have made everything less confusing, BUT I @&$?ING DID IT SO WE JUST NEED TO DEAL WITH THE BAD SITUATION I PUT MYSELF IN, OKAY?!?!? Any feedback is appreciated, kthxbye.


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1.) If you didn't say "Whatever you bet (on the river), I call" and the chips weren't over the line/and you didn't move them forward on the riv, then that's definitely not a call.

2.) What's with the unnecessary spewing?

3.) "The river was another Ace and it was clear to me I was dead in the water..." That was clear on the flop.

That's not a bet where I work. Definitely not a call of a future bet.

She figured it was a chop. Too bad, she didn't get called.

Only you know your intention, but it can sure look like an angle from the outside looking in. I define an angle as an ambiguous action designed to create a freeroll by creating a non-bonding appearance of action. People doing things like pump fakes (in a place where a beting line is enforced), toss in a a non-playing chip when facing action, moving chips right up to the betting line, but not over, are, in my opinion, angling.

Your action could be an innocent false tell, but placing chips in an area where they would have ended up if you had actually bet could sure be seen as an angle, even if you did not intend it as such.

Also, the whole 'cutting out calling\raising chips before action is on me\ posturing is usually seen as weakness. I have raised a lot of people out of hands when they make a big show out of posturing with their chip pile while action is on me.

And as a final comment, if I were at that table, i would be aggressively defending you. Not because I thought you were right, but because of the very spewy way you played that hand. I would even probably buy you a drink and make sure you were having a good time.

House rules apply here. You bet blind, but out of turn. In my room, if she had checked, your bet of $100 would stand and then she could call. But since she bet $100, the action changed and you can fold.

Changing the subject from poker rules to etiquette, you are an angling scumbag who needs a kick in the nuts.

From his description, the room uses a betting line. If they also use forward motion, then yes, this is a deliberate action out of turn and can be binding, and is definitely scummy if done on purpose.

Taking his comments at face value, I am not sure if he was deliberately trying to disguse or confuse his actions, rather he was trying to project a false tell. It seems more likely that he isn't scummy, just bad

I'm not quite sure how using both would work.

If I'm understanding OP correctly: Him moving the chips forward on the turn shouldn't constitute as forward motion for a river *call* since she hasn't even bet yet. The chips were just sitting near the line when the river was thrown out.

The bet line changes things here, but are you sure about that last part as it applies to your room?

It sounds like she believed she was accepting action offered, not intending to "lead out" as OP was so careful to frame it. Saying "call" in this spot would be action offered and accepted in many rooms, as would matching the offered stack. Otherwise you allow the OOT bettor to pull his bet back whenever the would-be caller forgets to check. It would be an attractive and frequent angle.

I have never in my life had to argue with a dealer about when or on what street I touched a stack. You are probably a scumbag.

I don't see anyone arguing that it's a call. If anything, it's blind OOT action. I will say that if OP was being deliberately confusing, then the betting line insulated him from any consequences of his behavior. I'd be damn tempted as a floor to rule it as offered action, likely to the disagreement to many in this thread but whatever.

We don't use a betting line. OP is just confusing the entire thing by talking about forward motion AND saying there's a betting line. Ive never seen a room use both. Also, some rooms have a line on the table but it means nothing. I doubt anyone will be able to make a correct ruling without knowing the house rules....two things are for sure though.

1) OP is an angler
2) OP is really bad at poker.

You got it, Mr. Tracy.


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Haha, thanks for the feedback. I’m actually up $3K in 18 hours of play there, so I would imagine the good players must be making some insane amount.

The play was bad, yes, but in context of how loose and crazy the game was it would make more sense to many of you. Or maybe not.

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. I see your point.

OK, it is unclear from his narrative what the house rules (at one point he states that he didn't cross the beting line, at another point he implies that forward motion, if in turn, would be considered action, which is inconsistent with a forward line room).

So, if forward motion is action, his cute little trick should be seen as OOT action, and house rules should have been applied. The dealer should have clarified it, but bascially, we have an OOT action from bernie trying to be cute, and then the in position player calling the OOT bet. Bernie owes $100, and gets a warning for acting out of turn intentionally,

If you ever need to ask the title question, the answer is yes.

Cool, so let’s shut down all forums and everyone can live in their own little bubble. Thanks for the valuable input.

The problem is that your opponent, looking at the situation, has a very rational belief that they have been called. After all, you have put a call in front of you. The dealer can see that your opponent bet and you have put a call out. Technically you have a case I suppose but I wouldn't blame any floorman that ruled against you. Be more careful with your chips next time.

His point is valid. If there is enough to suggest that you are a ******, so much that ou yourself are not sure if you were a *******, then you probably are a ******.

Your completely nonsensical answer to his point is pretty much [roving that you likely are a ******.

In the future, always ask yourself the question 'Is what I am about to do something a ****** would do, then wonder if it made him a ******?'

You're describing it as a mistake so on face value no you are not an angler. You caused your own problem though so that's on you. Also you played this hand pretty badly.

Idk, when I play I never do stupid s*** like putting my chips near the line to try to scare the other person into checking. I wouldn't classify it as an angle, but since it worked on the obviously inexperienced lady who was excited about her full house, maybe it is an angle? Having dealt and played for many years, anytime I see someone pull the move you did, I just laugh inside and think "chump" as you are basically turning your hand face up as weak.

To answer your question, I'd say you're not an a******, just unfortunate that the dealer is crap and that villain is a girl which basically guarantees that every s***reg at the table is going to compete to see who can white knight the hardest.

From a ruling point of view, it depends on whether the house rule on what makes a bet is the bet line (in which case you hadn't acted yet), or forward motion (in which case you did act, though OOT). (Assuming house rule on OOT is that it's binding UNLESS action changes, her river bet changed action so "technically" you could fold.)
BUT doing "signaling that [you] would call pretty much any river bet" (your words), and then not calling when she was confused about your action (whatever it was), and showed her hand, is pretty much the definition of an angle....
And if "everyone at the table" thought it was an angle, that might just have been a pretty good clue...
I can understand (maybe) trying to save $100 in the heat of the moment, because "technically" you hadn't called, but, considering the above, you really did angle and you should have just paid her. So, yes, I think you acted like a jerk.
Also, considering the way you played the rest of the hand, the last $100 shouldn't have bothered you much....

His point is invalid. If I knew my intention was to angle shoot, I wouldn’t come on here to post this.