So, am I correct that they did not accuse/ban you when you were at the casino? They called you later and said you were banned? Who exactly called and what exactly did they say?

Keep pressuring them for a face to face meeting. You can refer to security videos, but forget about asking to see them. Remind them that the dealer said that the cards were marked with indentations, not ink. Ask them to talk to the dealer. Ask them if the dealer singled you out or if someone watching the video decided you were the one.

Wait six months? They won't have the video. They will only have the notation "Barred for cheating (marking cards) at poker". And they will notice that you did nothing about it for six months. What do you think they will do then?

I'm not sure why everyone is so fixated on the pen spinning thing. He plays with a pen while he plays poker. Who cares? It has zero to do with cards being marked by crimping which is what the issue was here. OP claims to just lift the corner of the cards which is a very common way for cards to get creased. I've seen it many times and asked many players to stop doing it.

Maybe it was you, maybe it wasn't. I'm willing to bet it was you and you didn't even know it. You were likely lifting the cards exactly where all the creases were showing up so that is why they plucked you. Best bet is to speak to the manager or head of security and plead your case and beg for mercy. Good luck.

Could be. So if security says yeah we have him on tape with a pen in his lap and the dealer confirms the cards were not marked with ink, you may get reinstated.
It is pretty unclear from your posts how the cards were marked and why they believe it was you.

The security guy doing the review days later was the one who claimed he saw me inking the cards, so that's reason for all the talk about the pen.

Bending the corner of cards is always possible it was me as dealer called the floor 2nd time for bent cards after 1st time of fingernail marks. I could have been keeping a tighter cover/look at my cards after dealer brings up someone cheating the first time. Also refer to guy who sat leaning down and somehow saw my card tossing it i to the muck face down. Don't see how thumbnail would have accidently been me though.

I've played many hours there and I've had that exact same dealer many many times dealing at my table and never an issue before though with how I handle my cards.

Yes I was called days later and at first assumed they had me mistaken for another player.

How long do they keep video for?

Every place is different. For something where they banned you for cheating, they may have saved the video. Otherwise I would guess they only keep video for around 7-14 days.

"I thought the cards were bent. Or did you find cards marked with ink?"

Is what I would be asking.


Are you talking a tiny tiny little peek at about 1/8th of an inch of card?
That bends/marks cards. And is irritating.

And I hope your pen spinning trick isn't as obnoxious as it sounds here.

If it was an issue in general causing cards to get bent I think a dealer would have said something in my hundreds of hours at this casino.

Given that the dealer said someone had been marking cards and how seat 2 was able to see my cards at one point it is possible I looked at a smaller corner than normal that could cause a crease - I can't 100% rule that out.
But that is unlikely too as their is no way it would have been only the aces and kings.

Definitley don't see how the finger nail marks could have even accidently been me.

The pen thing I normally do off the in my lap and most people seem to neither notice nor care. It is also not 24/7 or anything. After reading this thread, I guess it is just wiser not to do it at the table.

Yeah, because everybody is competent at their jobs.

And nobody has ever come on this forum before, given us partial truths about some issue like this and expected sympathy or to be given information to get them out of the situation they got themselves into?

Im not buying what hes selling, but that's just me.

What is there not to buy? I've tried to be as specific about everything as I can so that I can get the best feedback possible.
I had even posted something after this incident asking if it was something I need to watch out for in Casinos. This was two days before being called about being banned. Do you think that is some elaborate hoax setup several days in advance?

See this thread https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1.../index293.html

Currently first post on most recent page.

I've seen thousands of marked cards. The vast majority are from players who incredulously insist 'it couldn't have been me' despite the videotaped evidence. They truly believe they didn't do it and nothing will convince them otherwise. I'm sure it's generally unintended. Could that be the case here?

What are the typical markings you see?

The two the dealer indicated to us were:

1: Initially a fingernail indent. It was on like all the aces and most of the kings.
Given that it was card specific, the way I view my cards, and that I don't move one card from top to bottom (ie an ace was dealt first it would be on the bottom and stay on the bottom - when I go to check it there is no way it could get an indent). I check my hands the same way every time so it would be evenly distributed across all random cards.

2: 20 minutes later she called the floor about a bent corner on what I think was the ace of spades. Given that I had not had that card recently I know it couldn't have been me. I could have been taking more of a "death peek" at my cards after knowing someone is cheating and someone saw one of my hands when I tossed them in the muck face down. (Seat 2 when I was in Seat 4). This again would not be specific to high cards. It is more likely I check my hand a second time post flop (where my hands are more weighted to high cards). This again should get both cards and not be hand specific although on this I can't rule out 100% that I didn't pull up the corner slightly too sharp at least once.

3. Ink stuff I think is complete nonsense and security guy seeing something where nothing is there. Dealer never once mentioned ink. Furthermore I have a relatively small bladder and get up to piss a lot and I never remember having a pen bleed ink on my hands when washing my hands (and I always wash my hands).

I'm not sure I believe him either, but your attitude in the last post was that casinos are infallible and "nobody gets a lifetime ban without good reason."

Other people have given good advice on the presumption that OP is on the right side of the story.

OP is so lost on explaining things that I 100% believe he didn’t cheat. Many examples, but...;

...he couldn’t have marked aces because he only played two big hands with them.

...what’s a setup?

OP my guess is the casino did you a solid life favor.

If OP is banned at all Caesars properties, hes banned at more casinos than he thinks because El Dorado just bought (merged) with Caesars so he will most likely be banned at all EL Dorado properties also.

I'd like to know which casino this happened in. I had no idea that Caesars owned any Indian casinos.

So you had a pen, and ink on your fingers, and their was ink on the cards of the same color, that only marked on the aces, kings, and one jack, but no other lower value cards?

The most curious part of this story is that you've been around in poker, and playing at a 5/10 level for years, and have never heard of card marking as a thing anyone ever has done with ink or some other form before ever.

Tribe, Caesars to bring Harrah’s casino to Northern California ... This is a 2018 headline for a Sacramento area casino that was scheduled to open 2019.

There is also another 2004 article where a management agreement was made with a Fresno area casino.

So, at least in CA, there is some cooperation between 'Vegas' and tribal entities.


There are tons of holes here that need to be filled. The 'ink' idea is crazy unless the setup was held aside and examined the 2-3 days later that OP describes. Not really sure how you could mark a card with a standard 'Bic' anyway.

We have issues with the shufflers 'marking' cards in our room. We also have certain Players that crease the cards by the way they peel them back. It's amazing that the issue goes away when they leave the table.

None of this has ever been even remotely associated with a Player trying to gain an advantage since, as OP states for his case, it actually is spread across the whole deck and is rarely caught 'on the Board'. It's usually someone who catches it PF when they are getting ready to muck.

I feel for OP but it will ultimately come down to 'properly' handling contact with the casino ... if OP even gets a chance soon or 6 months down the road. GL

The mentioning of two big hands is kinda irrelevant I guess. What I was getting at is I remember all the Ace/x hands I got to showdown with or had big pots and didn't show. I guess card marking would generally occur in hands you fold pre though?

Geuss I'm not used to setup change term as it is done so it is done slightly less frequently at this place (my home casino) compared to somewhere like the venetian. When they removed the marked cards from the deck instead of bringing in a whole new deck - they just replaced the individual cards - this seemed a little silly.

There was absolutley NO ink on my fingers and no ink ever mentioned on any card by dealer. This was just seems like some wild theory security guy watching camera came up with days later.

I've only been back into seriously playing live poker for like 2.5 years and have been beating 2/5 reasonably well, particulary this year. This was my first time at a 5/10 table and I got destroyed at it (which makes me being the one accused all the more ridiculous). My 2/5 table broke and there were no open seats at another 2/5 but table next to me was 5/10 and had 1 open seat. It was playing very deep with a $20 mandatory straddle and I def should have gotten up earlier and got on list for another 2/5.

I diasgree. We see alot of these ive been banned stories, and you are right way moire times than not poster is obviously full of it, and gives half truths and what not.

OP sounds pretty damn legit to me.

@jeffpm07 ...

Since its Tribal... Ceasers is simply mgmt company. The Tribe owns the casino and to that end Ceasers is their vendor. Tribe tells ceasers what to do, not other way around.

Each Mgmt Contract between ceasers varies. Which Casino is it? dont have to say of you dont want. but will help with path forward. Some Tribes are more involved in Casino Mgmt, some just sit home and collect checks

Either way, my sense is finding right Tribe member and going from there. Appriaching them with right strat also important. If you didnt sound so legit I wouldnt have even responded.

Sucks that this happened, but I give credit to casino for at least trying to protect players. although in this case they seemed to get it wrong.

I'm being careful on how I approach them and am writing a letter to the eviction review board.
It just sucks that this is right before a birthday trip to vegas where I was going to use my rewards for the room.

I pmed you the name ptlou.

Don't want the name of the indivdual casino here is I feel like directly calling them out online is innapropriate unti I have exhausted appropriate routes of direct contact with them. I've beeb unable to reach anyone of a high enough level by phone, only security supervisors.

I like the subtle way you are calling OP a liar again.

Ak-Chin in AZ is CET.

I pmed him casino name, but again I don't want to post it in this thread right now. A quick glance at a few posters historys in this thread and it appears another poster in this thread was there at the same time, and there is a likely chance weve played at same table before.