The tldr version is they said I was marking cards in a 5/10 poker game when I was most definitely not and lifetime banned me from all ceasers properties.

I called and the security guy claimed to have me on video doing it.
Given I had never even heard of card marking and after laerning what it is my eye sight is way to shitty to even do it.
I currently have plane tickets and a room booked for a trip to vegas and now I'm about to be stuck all that money and all my rewards $ and I am livid.

I am a semi reg at the casino in question and play there for 2 full days every 3 weeks for about 2 years. Furthermore it is the only legit poker room within 5 hours of me.

The night of the incident one of the dealers said someone was using their thumbnail to press into the cards and it was on most of the aces and kings and one jack.
I have a habit of spinning a pin around on my fingers that I have done all my life and do constantly and why I imagine they zoned in on me. Security guy said I was putting ink on my fingers to mark the card. Blatently false. I doubt the pen tip was ever even exposed and the dealer never once mentioned ink. I was also said to be bending the corners, but I'm sure my tiny peek at the corner of the cards at the start of the hand is nothing more than normal and certainly not hand specific. Furthermore one would have to be an idiot to use normal pen ink to mark a card in a serious casino.

At one point the poker room boss came to the table and said whoever was marking cards needs to stop or face a lifetime ban. Since it wasn't me I obviously wasn't worried - in facy when I first received a call I actually thought I was being comped a free stay or something due to having a card marker at the table.

Looking on how to proceed forward on this issue. Can provide any additional info needed.

I mean obviously call and cancel the room, if they fight you about giving you your money back I think you may be able to successfully dispute with your credit card company. You're not out the flights, find someplace else to stay in Vegas, there's plenty of hotel rooms there. Rewards money sucks but this is part of why I try to spend all my comp dollars down ASAP always, they're not really yours, I've gotten mine taken away for leaving the state and not gambling at a place for 12 months before.

Overall in these situations most people tend to suggest writing letters to dispute the situation, but they're a private business, so if they're convinced you marked the cards, you're going to have a tough time overcoming that. Sucks they were your only room in reasonable driving distance though.

What do you do with your cards during a hand you're playing? You're obviously likelier to hold big cards in hands you've VPIPed, so if you inadvertently did anything to mark those cards during your time with them, it may have actually been you!

I dunno, from the "only card room within 5 hours" comment you made, if 5/10 is their biggest game in this room, they probably can't stand for this sort of thing for any length of time, presumably the state gaming commission would be straight up their ass if they caught wind that there was anything not on the level happening. Bizarre and sucks that they came down on you for it (either because you did something inadvertent or because someone else did something deliberate and sneaky enough).

I have been lifetime banned from a major casino before. Granted it was not for suspected cheating, but I waited the six months recommended by security to write an apologetic letter and was reinstated. It might be tougher for you if they really think you cheated.

I'm gonna level with you though. If I'm reading you right, then you constantly handle a pen at a poker game? It's understandable that security would start their investigation with you. From there, it's easier for them to take mental shortcuts than to consider other possibilities.

It's also surprising to learn that someone who has played poker for at least eleven years, no less than two of those at a casino, has never heard of card marking. Did you ever wonder about burn cards during all those hours?

What are you spinning in your hand? A pin like a push pin? Or a pen as in a writing pen? Both are odd things to do at a poker table.
Since marking cards(how did you not know what that was, it’s evident by the words, marking cards) is considered cheating, it might be hard to get back in. If you do or play anywhere else, leave the pin or pen at home

Literally nothing out of the ordinary with cards. I make sure to cover well and just lift up the very corner as I see way to many people accidently exposing their cards even at 2/5. Should be pretty standard.

I was involved in only 2 decent size hands with an ace all night. One I 3! To 290 with Aq and got two callers and bet 550 on the flop and everyone folded. Second was aj where it was $60 3 ways to the flop and I bet $125 on flop and $300 on river and didnt show down. This one was right at the end of the night so unlikely one in question. All my other big pots didn't contain an ace which makes me think it was not accidently me either.

I was hoping being one of the biggest chains I would have some sort of better dispute mechanism. The casino in question is also an indian casino so I think that rules out small claims court.

I had two likely suspects at table. One could literally see whatvI folded face down onetime I tossed in after winning a pot (reallly really good eyesight) and he also ran 1k into 15k in 8 hours.
The second guy made a weird play jam with pocket 9s on a kk6 flop in a 3! Pot and made a comment that someone could be accidently doing it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...N8ZFOD4xbU2nov

That is what I do. Again the dealers never once said anything anout ink. I've always done it and never once had a negative comment ever by another dealer or player about it other than 1 joke.

When I think marked cards I think something much more complex like Ir ink and whatnot but apparently simple indents with a fingernail or chip and good eyesight have actually worked in major casinos (Often time glasses involved too - I wear glasses when driving but not at poker table and can't even see cards well from seat 2 or 8). I've assumed security at casinos is top notch and cheating couldn't occur but this current issue makes me think they they are a bunch of idiots.

IANAL but I think you had no shot in small claims regardless of tribal/not. They're a private business allowed to refuse you service for any reason not related to a protected class. They kick out card counters. They suspect you of cheating. This doesn't end well for you.

The fact that they're bigger does mean they likely have *some* dispute mechanism, just keep in mind it's them operating it and they've already looked at the video and decided you were the card-marker. Not good.

LOL, 1k to 15k and can see what you folded face down? That's pretty suspicious to start with...if you do get a crack at a dispute process, I would point out to them that somebody managed to win 14K in 8 hours.

I guess a couple other questions -- how many setup changes did you have? If they came over and made a warning about marking, presumably they changed the setup at the same time. Was it only the one setup change, or did they change multiple?

When you pick up the corner of your cards, you're sure you don't accidentally use a thumbnail with your off-hand to keep the cards on the felt? I'd say the likeliest way they "caught" you is that you did actually make at least a small mark on one card, and they stopped looking.

Casinos don't like to lose customers. Nobody gets a lifetime ban without good reason. My guess is there's more to the story than we've been told so far.

I put my middle and pointer finger down on the card to keep it in place and lift up the corner with my thumb while covering left side of card with left hand. Highly unlikely I would make a thumbnail indent this way as dealer initial claimed but possible they could flag me for bending corners. Your last comment could be spot on. It could likely be an instance of they "caught me" cause I had my pen out or picked up corners to sharply but is casino security really that bad?

Not sure what you mean by setup changes? Now that I think of it the dealer who initially called floor on marked cards was one who had incorrectly mucked my hand before when I flopped top set and was facing 2 all ins a flat from another deep stack with the effective nuts and was grabbing for chips. I called the floor in that instance but dropped it when I realized it wasn't getting anywhere and still managed to be polite somehow. This was probably 4 months ago and I doubt she remembers it as I didn't make much of a fuss. This should be 100% irrelevant as I did not make an issue of it like 95% of players would.

I have zero proof or indication the guy in mention who was in seat 2 (me in seat 4) was cheating. He sat down really low and I was amazed he saw a 6h I tossed in face down after winning a hand and made me a little suspicious.

There is not. I have absolutely no reason to leave anything out on here.
In terms of politeness and tipping drink staff and dealers I am also easily in the top 10% too. I generally drink a little and make a lot of friendly talk at the table but have never once gotten drunk at a poker table.

The fact that it was only aces and kings marked makes me think the odds of me accidentally getting the cards "marked" is unlikely but I can't say for certain that someone was or wasn't intentionally marking cards. I couldn't even distinguish the marked cards from seat 4 when supervisor was picking them out standing right behind dealer.

I spin a pen around my fingers in a lot of settings like company meetings, dates, ect. Just a habit and the tip of pen is never exposed or else when you drop it the tip gets damaged ten in starts to bleed and your khakis get ink stains.

By not knowing what marked cards is I mean not knowing the nuances of how it is done in modern poker. I don't play in any home games for serious money so I never thought it was something I need worry about.

Spinning a pen around your fingers on dates is not a likely recipe for success.

So, was it an Indian casino or a TR casino. If it was a TR casino, log into your TR account and spend down all your comp dollars on stuff in their web store if your online account is still active.

Then, wait half a year to a year and ask to get back in.

I only brought it up as i do it semi frequently and did for an hour or so that night and it is relevant to the discussion as it is likely what caused them to put their eyes on me. I've never had a dealer in 1000s of hours of live play tell me not to do it at the table. Obviously I don't do it all the time but for sake of the discussion, consider it to be a habit or addiction like smoking.

It is a tr casino on an Indian reservation. At this point I don't feel comfortable calling them out more specifically till I have at least talked to either the poker room boss or head of security. I have been attempting to reach both unsuccessfully. That said if you read through all my post it should be obvious of the exact location but please do not post it.

Nobody, and I do mean absolutely nobody(floor, dealer, players), wants to see you spinning a dang pen in your fingers for any duration of a session whatsoever. Trust me on this. Going a step further, having a pen in your hand during any part of being in said hand is just utterly ridiculous to me. There is no reason to ever have a pen on the table unless a dealer is signing for a fill-in.

You know what a fill-in is, right? I'm only asking because you said you have played for 11 years, yet didn't know what marking cards was or what getting a new setup was, which I also find unbelievable in the literal sense.

I'm really surprised that they allowed you to have a pen on the table at all much less play with it in your hands. I dont know a room that allows that. Do you leave it in your hands when you have cards or only pick it up when you dont have cards? Not saying you used it for cheating just curious as it seems so unusual to me.

fwiw pens are always on our tables, as we have drawing tickets that are awarded for certain hands that players will then fill out. They are kept just to the right of the drop slot.

Number of times having a pen on the table has been an issue: zero

Number of times I have ever seen someone "pen spinning": zero

Number of people who have ever cared that someone else was holding a pen: zero

What kind of sample could you possibly be talking about? I can't remember ever seeing anyone hold a pen at a poker table for any extended time, let alone "always" and "constantly" as OP describes it.

So I too have never known anyone to care that someone else was holding a pen, but that is effectively meaningless.

I had it out for maybe an hour or two of a 10 hour session.
I'm usually doing it above my lap and when I'm not activley involved in a hand. Never had anything said about it and security only paid attention to it reviewing the tapes as a dealernhad called the floor for marked cards.

Many people myself included eat at the table. That is atleast 10 fold the chance to accidently make an oily print on a card and much more disruptive yet common practice.

In response to another above post you can see my feb 2008 join date on here and see I've been around a while.

Even if this is on tribal land there may be something you can do with the state gaming commission once you feel you've exhausted trying to contact the casino directly.

Is there an administration building for the casino or tribe that's not connected to the casino? You could go there and request to be seen in person, but I don't want you to risk a trespass charge either. That is where it could be complicated if you are banned from all 'properties'.

Did you get any paperwork concerning your ban or were you just told? I'm not fully versed on trespass laws, but it's possible that they can't do too much without some sort of written notice or a signature acknowledgement from you at the time of the incident. GL

I too am confused about the pen spinning thing. Is this a nervous thing? Asperger's/fidget spinner type of thing? If I was a dealer I probably wouldn't worry too much about it but I would keep my eye on it. Sometimes players will borrow pens from us to jot down notes about whatever or work on the crossword puzzle. So having pens at the table isn't exactly foreign. However, if there was an issue with cards being marked, someone wielding a pen would certainly be high on my list of possible culprits.

As for what to do now, I'd put the pen away and contact security at some point down the line, maybe 6 months or more. Lifetime bans are not always what they sound like.

Fidget spinner type of deal. Just a habit i picked up in college.
I don't do it over the felt.

Seems pretty logical to me that security would think the only guy playing with the pen in his lap was the guy putting ink on the cards.

Not that it proves you were crimping the cards with your fingernails....

If you write a letter, it might be helpful to write the name of the company as "Caesars," instead of "Ceasers."

The dealer and floor never once mentioned ink on the cards though. I had no ink on my hands either as pen tip was never exposed.

I think that was solely from security guy reviewing tapes several days later. From my perspective it just seems like lazyness on security's part.

Sorry posted thread originally from my phone and didn't realize I butchered thread spelling untill after posting.