He admits he was angleing.

hahahaha bravo well played I dont think phil ivey could have done better. You took the little genius cutsey move this guy thinks is cool or clever and turned it against him, its like when you put laxatives in your own food to deter your roomate from eating it. Bravo well done, this deserves a sticky

villians fault for not showing down, all he had to do was turn the cards over you cant say he was forced to muck. Hes a victum of stupidity

That's no more angling than noticing that a guy who bluffs always folds to a raise, so you raise with 4 high.

I've often thought of snap calling a river bluff when I have a read and I'm HU against an opponent who mucks his river bluffs instantly. Is snap calling w/ 4-high overstating my hand and therefore an angle?

Question for those who don't see this as an angle.

What would you consider an angle?

He wasn't trying to get a read.
He asked if 88 was good with the intent of getting the guy to muck.
Which is not against the rules. But if that's not an angle...what is.

Disagree

Isn't that the very definition of bluffing?

Bluffing does not equal angling.

What OP did was simple table talk.

An angle would be saying the same thing after he called at showdown. Because at showdown people declare their hands, so saying "is a pair of eights good" then could very realistically been taken to mean "i have a pair of eights". Then the angler would say "&i didnt say I HAD eights, I just asked if they were good".

That's an angle. Expecting someone to muck when you call is not an angle. The OP said the Bettor had done it before. So it's just a stupid bad habit from the guy who mucked. Of course, the OP was terribly optimistic to to just call thinking that his comment would "ensure" it happened again.

But the fact is OP made a routine comment not at showdown that people always make to make it seem like they have a better hand than they do. That's not angling, its poker. If the bettor takes the incredibly stupid action of instafolding, that's his error. As I said, I suspect he probably would have folded even if the OP hadnt said anything. It appears to be his habit when he gets called on a bluff. So if OP recognized that fault, and took advantage of it, that's fair play.

Let me answer your question with a question (or two) of my own:

If the OP raised instead of calling after asking if pocket 8s were good, would you also consider that to be an angle? If so, why or why not?

Actually, the definition of bluffing includes betting or raising, not calling.

This was an angle, but who cares? It's not a rules violation, and the guy deserved it. The mistake was showing your cards so you can't do it again.

So then its not a bluff, its just a bad call. But there's nothing about it that is an angle. The bettor just made a stupid mistake.

So you won't answer my question.

What is an angle in your book?

See my post #33. I answered your question there.

That's not an angle. That's a rules violation.
And you can get away with that if you convince the floor that you really thought you had the straight.

If you had said "Pocket eights good?" after calling, I suspect it would be found against the showdown mis-declaration rule, and Villain would be awarded the pot.

Instead, you said it while tanking, but with the intent to have the exact same effect as misdeclaring at showdown. So it's technically not against the rules, but it's against the spirit of the rules and was committed with the intent of skirting a rule. That's angling.

I don't see Villain being awarded the pot here, but that doesn't mean it's a win for you. It was a foolish play. You're betting that Villain is betting a weak hand and that your angle will get him to muck. If you're so sure he has a weak hand that you're willing to try this, you'd do better to raise instead of shooting for this ridiculous parlay.

Also, showing your hand was a bad idea if you didn't have to show it. You gained nothing but a swelled ego, but you set yourself up for future unfavorable rulings. If you're ever accused of anything now, you're far less likely to get the benefit of the doubt from anyone who saw you do this. This is not to even mention that Villain will probably never muck at showdown again for the rest of his life—at least not against you.

If you say "is pocket eights good?" At showdown, that is not the same thing as saying "i have pocket eights". That's what makes it an angle. While you technically didnt declare your hand, you made it seem like you did, hoping to make the other guy muck.

Another example is when you are tanking on a river all in, and finally say OK, and show your cards. Technically, saying OK is not saying call. And in my room, exposing your hand heads up on the river is not a call. Together, those actions are often enough cause the other player to show his cards. Then, if you win, you dont say anything; if you are beat, the angler says I never said call.

Then it falls to the floor to decide and I've seen it go both ways. That's an angle. I saw Phil Ivey say OK to Dwan after a long tank for a million dollar pot, then not call on HSP.

But saying "are 8s good" before showdown is not an angle nor violating any spirit of a rule. Does anyone think that you can only ask that question if you really have 88? Of course not. And likewise, if the bettor had 99, and is asked if 88 is good, and he says yes, is he angling? Is he violating the spirit of any rule? Of course not. Does anyone think he is obligated to answer that question honestly prior to showdown.

How about when people say "do you have the flush" and you slightly nod your head up and down when you dont are you angling? No, you're playing poker.

Not an angle, but...

Fun fact, I've heard players from CA call this move the "Bluff Call", because in limit hold em the bettor often snap mucks when they get called. I've never seen anyone do it (by only calling) in NL though.

I have won several pots in CA and Vegas using the bluff call against players who I've noticed will frequently turbomuck when called (yes, in limit games).

Doesn't work so well in my home room, because we have to show to win the pot even if we're the only one left.

No, as written I don't think it's an angle, just table talk. Showing it was self-defeating, though, as many others have said.

who told the guy to muck his hand? What if he said he had a better hand rather than 88, would you still feel this is an angle?

what do you got? reply: a better hand than you and he mucks then you show down 5 hi. how did you angle?

to answer your question I would consider angling to be closer to outright cheating than being deceptive. A person that looks short stacked announces all in but has a $500 chip hidden underneath. Or when a reg aggrees to run it twice knowing that house rules do not force him to surrender half the pot if he happens to lose.

I thought a bluff was intended to make a person facing a poker decision to fold incorrectly. In this case all decisions were made with no more action left except to see the results of those decisions.



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And from the moment there was no more action left, the OP said and did nothing whatsoever. So he couldnt have angled. He just sat there. The bettor just mucked on his own.

That's what I thought. I disagree.

So because he could have prevented it, it wasn't an angle?

That's a rules violation, not an angle.

it's an angle, and it's awesome