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Old 02-18-2019, 05:23 PM   #1
Prince_of_Whales
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'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

I was playing in hand heads up where I was first to act and shoved all in on the river. The other player 'accidentally' flicked one chip into the middle but then immediately attempted to muck his hand as I went to expose my hand assuming it was a call. The dealer called the floor and apparently flicking in one chip is NOT binding. I find this interesting however given how literally everyone does the one chip call and in my experience this is symbolizes a call. This rule suggests a person can flick in a chip, wait for the player to expose their hand, and then retract the action based on what they say (assuming they dont say call). I was fine with the ruling, however, the the gentleman in question and his buddy made a big deal prior to sitting at the table about how the were big fish and just learning and purposefully playing somewhat maniacally initially w/ deep stacks putting on what seemed like a ruse. After this hand I saw this player calling down light, betting thin, and overbetting which didnt not seem like novice play in the slightest.

Anyway, thoughts? The commotion sort of killed some of the vibe but the guy already seemed disingenuous.
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:35 PM   #2
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_of_Whales View Post

I find this interesting however given how literally everyone does the one chip call and in my experience this is symbolizes a call.
I find it interesting that "literally everyone" does not include the dealer or the Floor.



Quote:
This rule suggests a person can flick in a chip, wait for the player to expose their hand, and then retract the action based on what they say (assuming they dont say call)
The rule suggests that the bettor should wait until an unambiguous signal from the Opponent (not the dealer), such as a clear and distinct "Call" or putting in sufficient chips for a call.

As a great man once said, "Show me the money"
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:56 PM   #3
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

If it helps, I can promise you that novice players call down light and overbet the pot.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:57 PM   #4
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by Prince_of_Whales View Post
The other player 'accidentally' flicked one chip into the middle but then immediately attempted to muck his hand as I went to expose my hand assuming it was a call.
Not that it matters but did you expose your hand before he mucked?

1. Accidentally flicking a chip into the pot is not a call.

2. A good dealer will always clarify it's a call, or at least announce "Call". You should have waited for this before tabling the nuts.

3. It sounds like the ruling was standard.

Next time clarify his intent before tabling your hand when he throws in a chip, whether it's by accident or not.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:14 PM   #5
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

Tossing a chip into the pot as a purposeful and deliberate action should be considered a call. But it never hurts to slow down and confirm action.

A chip inadvertently falling in front of the player should not be a call.

Without being there, it is impossible to tell what happened. Everytime I have seen it happened, the person mishandling the chips immediately grabs the chip back. If he did it then waited for you to respond, then only reacted when you exposed your hand, I would expect it to be ruled a call.

It sounds like you didn't give him a chance to clarify or commit himself.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:27 PM   #6
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

I have made this mistake before. I watched my chip flop across the across the table, doing a slow roll like a wheel before coming to a stop. I then said to the dealer, "I hope you don't think that was a call, do you?"
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:33 PM   #7
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
Not that it matters but did you expose your hand before he mucked?

1. Accidentally flicking a chip into the pot is not a call.

2. A good dealer will always clarify it's a call, or at least announce "Call". You should have waited for this before tabling the nuts.

3. It sounds like the ruling was standard.

Next time clarify his intent before tabling your hand when he throws in a chip, whether it's by accident or not.
I didnt expose my hand. And lol I did indeed have the nuts. I didnt really care too much about what the ruling was as the player only had about 300 left and this was 2/5. Two players however objected and were adamant that it was a call. The dealer called the supervisor before I said a word. So I just waited to see what the supervisor said. When the ruling was given the player mucked and I never tabled my hand.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:35 PM   #8
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
If it helps, I can promise you that novice players call down light and overbet the pot.
lol i know but its hard to convey why it felt as though he and his friend were being fake. For what its worth the player seemed to be angling as I thought about whether to check or shove. He hollywooded like he was going to shove, so I did it for him lol. Either way, I frankly coudlnt care less but I was surprised in the moment at the ruling.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:36 PM   #9
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_of_Whales View Post
I was playing in hand heads up where I was first to act and shoved all in on the river. The other player 'accidentally' flicked one chip into the middle but then immediately attempted to muck his hand as I went to expose my hand assuming it was a call. The dealer called the floor and apparently flicking in one chip is NOT binding. I find this interesting however given how literally everyone does the one chip call and in my experience this is symbolizes a call. This rule suggests a person can flick in a chip, wait for the player to expose their hand, and then retract the action based on what they say (assuming they dont say call). I was fine with the ruling, however, the the gentleman in question and his buddy made a big deal prior to sitting at the table about how the were big fish and just learning and purposefully playing somewhat maniacally initially w/ deep stacks putting on what seemed like a ruse. After this hand I saw this player calling down light, betting thin, and overbetting which didnt not seem like novice play in the slightest.

Anyway, thoughts? The commotion sort of killed some of the vibe but the guy already seemed disingenuous.
I do not do this.

Other people do not do this.

You should look up definitions of the word "literally," and learn what this word means.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:37 PM   #10
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Tossing a chip into the pot as a purposeful and deliberate action should be considered a call. But it never hurts to slow down and confirm action.

A chip inadvertently falling in front of the player should not be a call.

Without being there, it is impossible to tell what happened. Everytime I have seen it happened, the person mishandling the chips immediately grabs the chip back. If he did it then waited for you to respond, then only reacted when you exposed your hand, I would expect it to be ruled a call.

It sounds like you didn't give him a chance to clarify or commit himself.
I never tabled my hand. But when he flicked the chip in. Then immediately mucked his hand. Two regs were like 'UH THATS BINDING" and the dealer was like 'SUPERVISSSSOR' meanwhile I was chilling with the nuts hoping for a ruling in my favor but not too phased either way.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:10 AM   #11
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_of_Whales View Post
The other player 'accidentally' flicked one chip into the middle

literally everyone does the one chip call and in my experience this is symbolizes a call
Even when it's an accident?

The one chip call is awful. Who's bright idea was it?
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:12 PM   #12
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by Prince_of_Whales View Post
I never tabled my hand. But when he flicked the chip in. Then immediately mucked his hand. Two regs were like 'UH THATS BINDING" and the dealer was like 'SUPERVISSSSOR' meanwhile I was chilling with the nuts hoping for a ruling in my favor but not too phased either way.
If he flipped his chip, then discarded his cards before you reacted, I wouldn't even wait for the floor. In your original post, you give the impression that he mucked only after you started to expose your hand. In the latter case, it is possibly an angle and he is trying to see if you were bluffing. In the former case, it was clearly an inadvertent flip of the chip, and let's keep the game moving.

In a cash game, if a guy lets a chip fall into the middle and immediately mucks his card and grabs his chip, I am telling the people making a fuss 'that wasn't a call, let's keep going'. If it was tournament, I guess the floor is going to get called, but i would make it clear that I wasn't trying to make it a binding call.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:14 PM   #13
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by steamraise View Post
Even when it's an accident?

The one chip call is awful. Who's bright idea was it?
I look really cool in my sunglasses and headphones when I one chip call after tanking 3 minutes.

While playing a $65 daily
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:37 PM   #14
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

Spewing's post (#5) pretty much says it all ... But I'm seeing a little wiggle in how OP is describing the event. That's fine, it really doesn't change my opinion. But I think you were angled a bit here with each of your posts coming to light.

As mentioned when someone makes a mistake (intentional or otherwise) they don't generally move onto another action (attempted muck). They want to correct their mistake as quickly as they can ... by reaching to get their chip back. That being said I'm not sure how to interpret the attempted muck either. Only an experienced Player/Angler would know to get those cards into the muck as quickly as possible in an effort to force the Floor into making them call a bet without the benefit of holding any cards.

It's very possible that in that room a single chip doesn't constitute a call. LOTS of folks don't like the one chip rule but it's accepted, especially in HU situations when an all-in is involved. Beyond that it can get complicated as you found out.

I think there's more to the story on V's part ... and if you don't think that $300 is 'much' you can send it my way ... GL
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:02 PM   #15
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by Prince_of_Whales View Post
I didnt expose my hand. And lol I did indeed have the nuts. I didnt really care too much about what the ruling was as the player only had about 300 left and this was 2/5. Two players however objected and were adamant that it was a call. The dealer called the supervisor before I said a word. So I just waited to see what the supervisor said. When the ruling was given the player mucked and I never tabled my hand.
You really didnt care too much but then you went home and posted about it here? Come on Man!

PS...Never in my life have I put one chip in to call a bet.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:17 PM   #16
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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You really didnt care too much but then you went home and posted about it here? Come on Man!

PS...Never in my life have I put one chip in to call a bet.
Not even if it is a one chip bet?
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:33 PM   #17
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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PS...Never in my life have I put one chip in to call a bet.
You’ve never overlimped in a 2/5 game?
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:07 AM   #18
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

another stupid gray area rule/situation where it was also OP's fault for not protecting himself and getting clarity.

just ****ing wait and make sure before turning over your hand or mucking or whatever. its not difficult at all.
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Old 02-21-2019, 09:18 AM   #19
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Not even if it is a one chip bet?
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:50 AM   #20
JoseJohnnyJimJack
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

OP, one chip forward is shorting the pot if that one chip doesn't cover your bet. At this point, it's your responsibilty to protect your pot and make the pot right by verifying action. Even if the dealer says call, you still want to verify with villain or you want the dealer to verify with villain because dealers have in the past assumed call and stated call when it has been an accident on villains' part.

You've seen one chip calls be calls in the past, not because it's necessarily a rule, but because either the dealer stated call or villain stated call as the chip went forward.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:58 PM   #21
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

LOL at any clown trying to hold someone to a call when one chip falls forward and they immediately muck their hand. Agree that when I read OP I thought it was gray as to what happened, since it reads like they only said they didn't call once they saw the nuts.

Given that he threw his cards in before he saw OP's hand, how could it possibly be a call, or possibly be an angle? Hey, maybe I'll be held to a call but can't win because I have no cards!
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:45 PM   #22
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by JoseJohnnyJimJack View Post
OP, one chip forward is shorting the pot if that one chip doesn't cover your bet. At this point, it's your responsibilty to protect your pot and make the pot right by verifying action. Even if the dealer says call, you still want to verify with villain or you want the dealer to verify with villain because dealers have in the past assumed call and stated call when it has been an accident on villains' part.

You've seen one chip calls be calls in the past, not because it's necessarily a rule, but because either the dealer stated call or villain stated call as the chip went forward.
One chip calls of all-in bets are pretty common, probably moreso in tournament play, but common nonetheless.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:57 PM   #23
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
One chip calls of all-in bets are pretty common, probably moreso in tournament play, but common nonetheless.
This is because a lot of people are easily brainwashed into doing things that are not correct.
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Old 02-22-2019, 12:26 AM   #24
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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One chip calls of all-in bets are pretty common, probably moreso in tournament play, but common nonetheless.
When it's an accident?
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:03 AM   #25
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Re: 'Accidentally' flicking in a chip not a call?

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This is because a lot of people are easily brainwashed into doing things that are not correct.
Whatever your opinion of it is, or the people who do it, it is a very common convention. And a very large number of rooms enforce a deliberate act of pushing one chip forward as a call. Although, interestingly, those same rooms would not always make you complete an undercall.

Poker conventions evolve, and a one chip call is a common and usually binding action.
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