Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-02-2010, 03:51 PM   #1
runLOLArun
grinder
 
runLOLArun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 460
AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Everyone seems to think that the new casinos that have opened/are opening in PA will steal away all the AC gamblers. I don't think so based on feedback I've heard. The PA casinos allow smoking, and the places there reek from it already. A big turn off to many. Also, I've heard the gaming regulations there aren't up to par with the NJ casino commision. Anyway, I think AC will be OK.
runLOLArun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 04:00 PM   #2
rammynutzhard
grinder
 
rammynutzhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: RAMMYLAND
Posts: 656
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Well, the video poker paytables are horrendous in PA, the slot paybacks are terrible, and you're right, most of the casinos have the majority of the casino smoking which will deter some people from coming. As far as table games, depending on the rules set for the games, the taxes, and the rake for poker, I don't believe that AC has too much to worry about... except maybe for the first year or so until everybody tries it out.
rammynutzhard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 04:23 PM   #3
Jim215
temp-banned
 
Jim215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 82 miles from Borgata
Posts: 646
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

In considering where to play, these two numbers should be of interest:
Atlantic City casinos pay 9% of their net slot winnings in taxes to the state of New Jersey.
Pennsylvania casinos pay 55% of their net slot winnings in taxes to PA.
Assuming my limited math skills are close to target, that means if I'm a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to pay my tax obligations.
Ergo, PA slot payouts are paltry compared to NJ.
Jim215 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 04:27 PM   #4
hamsamich
veteran
 
hamsamich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,327
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Smoking?

WOW

-1 degenerate for AC

Sorry guys but the sammich is a smoker.

Even still, I would only go there if they allow smoking AT THE POKER table, which I would be very surprised to see happen.
hamsamich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 04:35 PM   #5
Dima2000123
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,519
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
In considering where to play, these two numbers should be of interest:
Atlantic City casinos pay 9% of their net slot winnings in taxes to the state of New Jersey.
Pennsylvania casinos pay 55% of their net slot winnings in taxes to PA.
Assuming my limited math skills are close to target, that means if I'm a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to pay my tax obligations.
Ergo, PA slot payouts are paltry compared to NJ.
Nope, they are indeed limited. You need to flip over the percentages. In AC, casinos keep 91% of their profit. In PA, they keep 45% of their profit. Therefore, to get the same profit, the gouging would need to double.
Dima2000123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 04:38 PM   #6
NickMPK
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,115
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
In considering where to play, these two numbers should be of interest:
Atlantic City casinos pay 9% of their net slot winnings in taxes to the state of New Jersey.
Pennsylvania casinos pay 55% of their net slot winnings in taxes to PA.
Assuming my limited math skills are close to target, that means if I'm a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to pay my tax obligations.
Ergo, PA slot payouts are paltry compared to NJ.
You would only need to make double the net winnings in PA compared to NJ to take home the same amount of after-tax profits.

For instance, if a casino in NJ made $100,000, and paid 9% taxes, it would have $91,000 after taxes.
A casino in PA, paying 55% taxes, would need to make $202,000 to end up with $91,000 after taxes.
NickMPK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 04:51 PM   #7
StackerBA
grinder
 
StackerBA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 664
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

PA overtook NJ in slot revenue for the month of December so all the smoke and (apparently) tighter slots don't seem too much just as long as you can save $10 on tolls and ~2 hours of driving.
StackerBA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 05:03 PM   #8
TheCardsDontCare
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 70
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Never mind the slots. Will the rake be higher in Philly poker rooms than in AC? Because equivalent rake to AC would be +EV for Philly poker.
TheCardsDontCare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 05:26 PM   #9
Pippen33
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,063
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

yeah...I'm going to go ahead and completely disagree.

Like Stacker said, it's already hurt slot play (apparently considerably). AC has no table game competition (besides some video versions) so this is 100% going to impact the already shrinking bottom lines.

From a poker standpoint, I hope they don't do a BBJ drop. If they do and it's a similar $4 + $1 drop or $5 time for 2-5NLHE (and the games are good) there's no way I'll be in AC from Oct - April (aside from some Borgata tourneys). I'd still go to AC for some summer cash games but why drive 90 mins (I'm in King of Prussia, PA) and pay tolls when I can be at PARX in like 25 mins tops....with one ($2) toll?
Pippen33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 06:45 PM   #10
Hoos Crazy
journeyman
 
Hoos Crazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 322
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Table gaming in PA will absolutely hurt AC - the only question is how much?

The issue is whether PA gaming will draw entertainment dollars from AC (and Vegas etc) only - or whether a good portion of their revenues will come from people who would not otherwise be spending their money in AC. For instance, will a night playing slots and getting free drinks replace an evening of clubbing or bowling or a nice dinner out?

If PA gaming draws a lot of its income from people who would not have spent that money in AC, then the gaming pie gets bigger. AC will lose some business to be sure, but I suspect that a lot of the money coming into PA casinos will be local money that would never have found its way down to AC.


For poker players, I suspect that there will be a lot of us who will play more often when there is a casino closer to home. Philly is an easier drive than AC from the DC area. For me, it would be a choice of Philly or AC. But if I lived within an hour of Philly, it might be once a month rather than twice a year.
Hoos Crazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 10:11 PM   #11
Jim215
temp-banned
 
Jim215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 82 miles from Borgata
Posts: 646
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dima2000123 View Post
Nope, they are indeed limited. You need to flip over the percentages. In AC, casinos keep 91% of their profit. In PA, they keep 45% of their profit. Therefore, to get the same profit, the gouging would need to double.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
You would only need to make double the net winnings in PA compared to NJ to take home the same amount of after-tax profits.

For instance, if a casino in NJ made $100,000, and paid 9% taxes, it would have $91,000 after taxes.
A casino in PA, paying 55% taxes, would need to make $202,000 to end up with $91,000 after taxes.
Math can be a funny thing. You guys are correct with respect to "net profit after taxes". But that has nothing to do with what I stated. I said, " If I am a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to meet my tax obligations".
Here's how:
A PA casino grosses $1,000 and pays $550 in taxes ($1,000 X 55%).
A NJ casino grosses $6,000 and pays $540 in taxes ($6,000 X 9%).
A PA casino owes the same amount of tax by grossing one-sixth of the amount of money as a NJ casino.
That's a ratio of 6 to 1.
Therefore, my statement is true before taxes and your statements are true after taxes.
Class dismissed.
Jim215 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 11:22 PM   #12
NickMPK
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,115
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Math can be a funny thing. You guys are correct with respect to "net profit after taxes". But that has nothing to do with what I stated. I said, " If I am a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to meet my tax obligations".
Here's how:
A PA casino grosses $1,000 and pays $550 in taxes ($1,000 X 55%).
A NJ casino grosses $6,000 and pays $540 in taxes ($6,000 X 9%).
A PA casino owes the same amount of tax by grossing one-sixth of the amount of money as a NJ casino.
That's a ratio of 6 to 1.
Therefore, my statement is true before taxes and your statements are true after taxes.
Class dismissed.
What do you mean by "tax obligations"? Your obligation as a casino is to pay a certain percentage of your net profit, right? You make it sound like every casino needs to pay exactly $X million to the state or something.

How exactly do PA casinos need to "gouge at a rate six times higher"? What gouging rate are you referring to? I assume you mean the % rake or % the casino takes from each dollar bet. This would essentially have to be double in PA. You sound even more confused in this post than the last.

Yes, the tax rate is six time higher, but this simply doesn't translate at all into how much the casinos have to take from their players.
NickMPK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 11:41 PM   #13
Jim215
temp-banned
 
Jim215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 82 miles from Borgata
Posts: 646
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
What do you mean by "tax obligations"? Your obligation as a casino is to pay a certain percentage of your net profit, right? You make it sound like every casino needs to pay exactly $X million to the state or something.

How exactly do PA casinos need to "gouge at a rate six times higher"? What gouging rate are you referring to? I assume you mean the % rake or % the casino takes from each dollar bet. This would essentially have to be double in PA. You sound even more confused in this post than the last.

Yes, the tax rate is six time higher, but this simply doesn't translate at all into how much the casinos have to take from their players.
Perhaps you're the one who is confused.
If a PA casino owner has to pay the exact same amount of tax dollars as a NJ casino owner on one-sixth of the income generated, then they are operating at a 6 to 1 disadvantage to NJ. Yes, it's all about the percentage of taxes that causes the disparity.
I conceded that the other posts were correct when speaking only of profit after taxes.
We need to get a math instructor in here.
Jim215 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 11:52 PM   #14
NickMPK
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,115
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Perhaps you're the one who is confused.
If a PA casino owner has to pay the exact same amount of tax dollars as a NJ casino owner on one-sixth of the income generated, then they are operating at a 6 to 1 disadvantage to NJ. Yes, it's all about the percentage of taxes that causes the disparity.
I conceded that the other posts were correct when speaking only of profit after taxes.
We need to get a math instructor in here.
Of course that is true, but how does that relate to the statement "I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to meet my tax obligations"?

What "rate" are you talking about here?
From your statement, it sounds like you are talking about the rake, or house advantage. But there, your math doesn't work.
NickMPK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 01:11 AM   #15
nocrying
journeyman
 
nocrying's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 379
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Perhaps you're the one who is confused.
If a PA casino owner has to pay the exact same amount of tax dollars as a NJ casino owner on one-sixth of the income generated, then they are operating at a 6 to 1 disadvantage to NJ. Yes, it's all about the percentage of taxes that causes the disparity.
I conceded that the other posts were correct when speaking only of profit after taxes.
We need to get a math instructor in here.
Im not sure I understand your basic premise that each operator pays the same amount of taxes to each state.

Pa table games tax rate are 16%, whereas NJ is 12%. The rake is proposed up to 10%, didnt see cap info, but it could be burried in there. Also, they have provisions for time charge as well. Here is the link to the legislation.

http://www.pgcb.state.pa.us/files/re...nd_Annex_A.pdf

Poker in Pa will hurt casinos in Atlantic City.
nocrying is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 01:27 AM   #16
rubixxcube
old hand
 
rubixxcube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 1,644
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Whoever said how much it will hurt is the question is correct. i am a great example. i live 1 hr and 10 mins from Ac and 30 mins from parx and harrahs chester. while i am not too far from ac... as long as the games are on par iam lazy and would rather drive half the distance. plus i am more likely to go more often. looking at purely the gambling aspect. if you lived in philly area why would u chose to drive 1hr instead of 10 minutes.
rubixxcube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 02:23 AM   #17
yanxchick
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 116
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

I've thought about how the Pa. casinos are going to affect the AC casinos a lot. Reading this thread make certain points clear.

AC casinos are going to be full of tourists with money who are staying overnight. Seeing as the PA casinos don't have hotels, you are going to be a bunch of locals all looking to go after the same cash.

I still can't see how people in PA are going to want this every night.

Will there be action some nights? Sure.

But AC will still be the better option because of better games. IMO
yanxchick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 02:26 AM   #18
biznatchcenter
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 670
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Math can be a funny thing. You guys are correct with respect to "net profit after taxes". But that has nothing to do with what I stated. I said, " If I am a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to meet my tax obligations".
Here's how:
A PA casino grosses $1,000 and pays $550 in taxes ($1,000 X 55%).
A NJ casino grosses $6,000 and pays $540 in taxes ($6,000 X 9%).
A PA casino owes the same amount of tax by grossing one-sixth of the amount of money as a NJ casino.
That's a ratio of 6 to 1.
Therefore, my statement is true before taxes and your statements are true after taxes.
Class dismissed.
yes, but most likely the regulations don't allow them to guage at 6 times the rate. sure their slots will be tighter but likely not by that much. so what happens is the casino just does not earn the same level of profit as one in a lower tax state. hence, its likely to be less fancy, etc. as opposed to ripping off the customers more.

illinois and indiana are the classic example of this. indiana has fairly nice casinos and illinois are ****holes. mostly because illinois taxes at something like 70 percent of gross revenues. of course getting to build a casino right in philadelphia likely will mean they can fill the place close to capacity so they might be able to build a nicer atmosphere despite the taxes.

more than anything i think the table games is going to have the worst effects on the lower end casinos without much entertainement (see trump, ballys, showboat,). at least borgata, harrah's, trop, have some other reasons to go there. borgata especially. but i think will have some effect on all of the casinos as obviously its going to be alot closer for some customers who just want to gamble.
biznatchcenter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 04:58 AM   #19
esch
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 528
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

FWIW, I am in North Jersey (right near the GWB) and places like Philadelphia Park are 30 minutes closer than AC (90 min v. 120 min), so AC is going to lose at least one or two visits by curious me.
esch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 06:33 AM   #20
ThunderEagle
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 588
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanxchick View Post
Seeing as the PA casinos don't have hotels, you are going to be a bunch of locals all looking to go after the same cash.
You think all of these locals will be good? First, not all locals will be regulars. Second, not all regulars are good at poker.
ThunderEagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 06:51 AM   #21
waldoworld
grinder
 
waldoworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 504
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanxchick View Post
AC casinos are going to be full of tourists with money who are staying overnight. Seeing as the PA casinos don't have hotels, you are going to be a bunch of locals all looking to go after the same cash.

I still can't see how people in PA are going to want this every night.

Will there be action some nights? Sure.

But AC will still be the better option because of better games. IMO
Actually, this scenario means, to my mind at least, that the unconcerned fish will stay in PA while the real poker player sharks go to the "better games" that they are willing to drive for. So really the games in PA should, by this theory, be softer. Less tourists, maybe, but I don't think it will be a bunch of rocks, either.

Course I don't live there, so what do I know.
waldoworld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 09:54 AM   #22
mi$ter ILL
veteran
 
mi$ter ILL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: im at where your sister went
Posts: 3,334
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

i live literally 5 minutes from where sugar house will be (if it ever opens). i'll definitely play there a lot assuming the games are good, rake isnt crazy, etc.

every time im in ac these days, everybody im playing with is talking about how they cant wait for the PA casinos to open up and start poker rooms, and that as soon as that happens ac can basically suck it.

for me personally, comp rooms will keep me going up to ac for as many nights a month as i have free rooms. i enjoy the escape; feels like a vacation.
mi$ter ILL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 12:06 PM   #23
TheTalkingMule
grinder
 
TheTalkingMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kensington South
Posts: 468
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanxchick View Post
I've thought about how the Pa. casinos are going to affect the AC casinos a lot. Reading this thread make certain points clear.

AC casinos are going to be full of tourists with money who are staying overnight. Seeing as the PA casinos don't have hotels, you are going to be a bunch of locals all looking to go after the same cash.

I still can't see how people in PA are going to want this every night.

Will there be action some nights? Sure.

But AC will still be the better option because of better games. IMO
This is the big reason why I loved the Foxwoods move to the Gallery adjacent to the convention center. The Philly CC is undergoing a massive expansion and those conventioneers would be so sweet for a poker room. Now they've shifted it back to South Philly, so we'll see.

As for the amount of fish.... all those "tourists" in AC live in the Philly suburbs so I don't see why they wouldn't still be around because a game was moved closer to their actual home. There are 6-7 million people in the Philadelphia metropolitan area. There's a lot of fish in there.
TheTalkingMule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 12:10 PM   #24
Dima2000123
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,519
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Math can be a funny thing. You guys are correct with respect to "net profit after taxes". But that has nothing to do with what I stated. I said, " If I am a casino owner, I need to gouge PA players at a rate SIX TIMES HIGHER than NJ players in order to meet my tax obligations".
Here's how:
A PA casino grosses $1,000 and pays $550 in taxes ($1,000 X 55%).
A NJ casino grosses $6,000 and pays $540 in taxes ($6,000 X 9%).
A PA casino owes the same amount of tax by grossing one-sixth of the amount of money as a NJ casino.
That's a ratio of 6 to 1.
Therefore, my statement is true before taxes and your statements are true after taxes.
Class dismissed.
If you said that you're right because the sky is blue, your logic would make just as much sense. What does the comparison of 6,000 to 1,000, which indeed is a ratio of 6 to 1, have to do with the statement that PA casinos have to gouge at 6 times the rate to meet tax obligations, is beyond me.

I hate to belabor the point and derail the thread, but one sure way to hook me is to be wrong, and be really insistent about being wrong.
Dima2000123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 12:25 PM   #25
yanxchick
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 116
Re: AC need not worry about Philly/PA casinos

Many of the regulars in AC aren't good either. My points were sweeping generalizations and don't go for 100 percent of the people.

Atlantic City feeder markets don't just include Philly and its suburbs. There's Va., DC and those regional areas. Philly IS closer to them, but these people don't come up for a night to play cards and then go home five hours later. And, before I'm told some people have done this, yes, I've met them too. But for the most part, these people are staying overnight.

NY is also in that feeder market. NYers can go to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun without paying a single toll. While curiosity got many of them to check out those card rooms, many still come to Atlantic City for a few reasons.

There's more selection in the amount of rooms.
Bad Beat Jackpots get extraordinarily high.
And, alcohol is 24 hours. Lots of people like to drink and the Conn., casinos cut off around 2 a.m. (I may be off on this since it's been years since I have been there, but I know they cut off early).

I still think the bigger poker rooms are going to do well when the Pa., casinos open. The rooms in AC that probably have to worry are Showboat and Bally's.
yanxchick is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive