This popped up on the Cincinnati Jack Thread ...

Poker player goes to take a smoke .. Person lifts $500 in chips off the table.

Poker player goes to security and they stop and talk to guy but he denies and leaves. Later he is shown on tape taking the chips. Not sure how 'player' knew who took the chips.

Security says that they can't do anything because he 'abandoned' his chips when he went to smoke. WTF is going on here? Is this some new policy that The Jack brand has in place?

I assume the chips were left at an active table but the player doesn't specifically state that in the post. If he left chips at an empty table then there might be a different set of rules that apply.

Security just told him he is SOL ... didn't even suggest contacting Cincinnati PD.

Any comments ??? GL

It is common, or even universal, that the casino will officially take no responsibility for chips left on the table. I know this goes against everything you think you know about poker, and the practical view that a substantial portion of the poker community leaves their chips on the table routinely, but it is a fact nonetheless. Players will sometimes take large denom chips off the table with them when they walk away from the table, and this is permitted (though they are asked to bring back the exact same amount when they return) for exactly this reason.

Some casinos will go farther to assist in such a case. Some may even attempt to make it up to a particular player (in cash, comps, or otherwise). But none will establish any precedent that they are in any way responsible.

If he was robbed, he should call the police himself, whatever security does or does not tell him. It is a bummer that they didn't suggest it themselves, but not really important. The police should ask for the video surveillance that the casino has, and ask if they can identify the player through a players card or facial recognition. The casino will likely not refuse a lawful police request for this info.

Dinesh pretty much nailed it as usual, but the casino should certainly attempt to ID the thief and ban him from the property. The reality is that the casino is not responsible for the money left on the table. The victim here should absolutely call the police himself and report it. If the police can identify him there is a chance he will get the $$ back.

I want to comment on this only because in the last few threads about this there's a pretty vocal minority who will go way too far and advocate not leaving chips unattended.

Poker players commonly leave chips on the table and the vast vast vast majority of the time it's fine. Unless you have a bunch of easily stealable chips (like high denomination chips, which should be handled as dinesh suggested), the cost of cashing out every time you need to pee outweighs the benefit of having your chips in your control.

Yes, it's a risk to leave chips at the table. But it's not a big risk.

I think I've seen someone once - ever - attempt to sit down and take someone else's chips. Plus maybe 3-5 mistakes. All were quickly realized.

On a slightly tangential note, this is just another reason to maintain a good personal relationship with people at the table. People are more likely to speak up if they see someone stealing Kevin The Friendly But Dimwitted Investment Banker's chips than if they see someone stealing Seat Eight Wait Was That The Same Guy In Seat Eight's chips.

If the casino won't protect your chips, what are the alternatives? It isn't feasible to never leave your chair for an 8 hour session, and I can't imagine it would be looked kindly on to constantly be pulling your high value chips off the table every time you go to the loo (too much opportunity for going south, north, or even east)

The alternatives are:

1- Never go to the bathroom
2- Take all but 1 chip and stuff your pockets
3- Have a friend stay and watch
4- Publicly and obviously count your chips right before you leave
5- Hire a chip watcher guard
6- Put something (like an ipad or a kindle) on top of your stack before you go to make it hard for someone to lift a chip off the top
7- Put large denoms on the bottom of your stack while gone
8- Take your high denoms each time
9- Get a chip cover playover box
10- Don't worry about it, and deal with it the 1 time in a million when someone tries to steal from you


There are probably more, too.

It's been well known within the community that if chips are stolen from a live table while on break, no, the casino will not take responsibility as far as reimbursing us for our loss. That's already well known. However, when they know who stole them and will not take steps to ID him and at least request them back upon his return in lieu of a ban, that is totally irresponsible on their part.

Chips unattended, even if they're on the floor, are the casino's property. If someone takes them, it's theft and it's horrible and almost negligent for the casino to say "Hey, they were unattended. Sorry, not our prob."

This is wrong, except in the "all chips, whether lost or not, at all times, whoever has them, remain the property of the casino, and can only be exchanged for cash at our prerogative" sense which may be true in some jurisdictions.

Chips (or any item) left unattended remain the legal property of the person who left them unattended. Chips that are lost or misplaced also remain the property of the person who lost or misplaced them, not the person who finds them, in most jurisdictions (though they will convert to being owned by the finder if the true owner cannot be found). Only property which is abandoned, which would almost never be the case for chips that still have monetary value, become the property of the person who finds them.

You may be getting confused because, if you find property that is lost or misplaced, you must attempt to find its true owner and return it to them. Oftentimes the easiest way to do that is to turn it into the casino lost and found. And if you are an employee who finds a chip during the ordinary course of duty, you are obligated to treat your employer as the entity which found the item, rather than you as an individual, and will likely be terminated if you do not turn it over to the casino.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_...doned_property

With all the broke degens in a poker room, I am quite amazed that someone hasn't taken your suggestion #5 and started hovering around tables, offering to guard their chips for a buck

Well the "security" person in this case is either nuts or a drop out L1. I am NOT saying casino is legally responsible to protect your chips on the table while you are away. But his claim it was "abandoned" property is wrong on multiple fronts.

First, as noted above the chips are never your property. The physical chips are the casino property and you have a usage license. But you leaving them laying anywhere in the casino property, they remain casino property.

If I loan John a Rolex I own and then he leaves it on the kitchen counter (of the house I own or lease), he has not abandoned it. You can't pick it up and claim it is now yours.

Even if the chips were your property (and not the casino's), leaving them laying on a poker table (open or closed), is not abandoning them. The old mantra loser's weepers; finders keepers is not true in the legal world. I could even drop or lay chips on the floor and they are still "mine" (i.e. I retain the license to use them). Now MAYBE if I put them in the trash container, then you might be able to make the case I abandoned my use license.

Heck, I can park my car on a public street (legal parking spot), leave the keys in the ignition, and go away for a week. I have not abandoned my car; you can not drive off and claim it is yours. You would be guilty of theft if caught. The city after some period of time (for open parking probably longer than a week) tow my car to the impound (and eventually the car could become abandoned then). But you aren't legally driving off with it.

So the Casino might not have liability; but he should not be SOL if the casino was able to ID who took them.

BTW, I remember a specific casino stating they did not accept any liability for CASH left on the table when you took a break. They told you to show the dealer how much cash there was when you left and again when you returned. And to take it with you.

Now, I am not a lawyer, and it would likely not be easy, but them giving those instructions for how to handle cash but not for chips may have opened them up to a claim that they did accept some level of liability for chips. Of course since cash no longer plays, those signs came down and thus this potential claim is moot.

casinos have never taken responsibility for your money or chips in the establishment. only rarely will they give some reimbursement. its up to you to decide how to handle your chips and money when you walk away from them.

i always take the large chips and cash with me and leave something on top of the rest. unless i know everyone and regulars that will protect my stuff. but even a grab and run can happen as ive seen it a few times. and the casinos try to help but do not take responsibility.

unless just the nickel chips i usually chip up to bigger ones i can carry away. ive been in a couple quick fire evacuations where everyone left quickly. one good reason not to be the big shot with racks of small denomination chips piled up.

If it is a real concern of yours you can take pretty much your entire stack with you every time you get up. State to the table the amount you are taking. Leave a single chip and ask for seat to be locked. Replace exact amount when returning.

However, after doing this once or twice you may agree with others that leaving chips isn't that big a deal. Take the large stuff or easy to snag chips and leave the rest while gone.

Thanks for the quick replies. We had pretty much the exact opposite approach by casino security at a Michigan casino this past Spring. Non-player wanders by the very deep PLO game and snaps up a bunch of the bills from the table and heads for the door. Security started after him and even 'gave chase' in the courtesy car until losing him at a traffic light.

State police was contacted and spotted him on the freeway, gave chase then gave up due to it being too dangerous at the time. Guy would've gotten away but he tried to pass traffic on the right and was re-spotted by state police some 40 miles away. Tried to pass on the right again and lost it in the ditch.

For someone who pokes his nose into a lot of things, I never did ask any of the players how things came out in the end. The money was recovered but unless it was all in one spot in the car the guy might claim that some of it was his. The bills came from both a pot and at least one stack. GL

while this is true, sometimes it will require multiple racks. Then the dealer needs to verify the amount, and put out lammers for that amount. If everyone did this the games would come to a stand still every down.

I remember when I used to play at the Trop in AC (I think it was there) they had chip covers, basically a big box with a handle that you place upside down over your chips while you're away. I'm surprised we don't see these boxes more often.

I’ve been a lurker for a while but I have a story that is relevant to this thread.

I used to grind low stakes on the strip and I used to play at Aria at least 4 nights a week. One night I was in a friendly 1-3 game where the entire table was chatty, including two buddies from somewhere in Europe. I was sitting in the 7 seat next to one of the buddies who was in seat 6.

We had been playing and talking for several hours when the two guys decide to go smoke their cigars they had purchased. They get up and several minutes later a new guy sits down next to me. I welcomed him to the table and engaged in a little small talk. He was from France, hadn’t played at Aria before, blah blah blah.

He probably played five or six hands before getting a phone call, racking up and leaving. I didn’t think anything of it until the Euro buddies came back to the table and the guy next to me asked where his chips are. We all looked at him like he was crazy; obviously he had cashed out when he went to smoke his cigar. We even welcomed the new French guy to the game, there’s no way Euro buddy didn’t take his chips with him.

Considering what was happening he remained very calm and went to the floor and described what happened. They asked how much he had on the table and he said he wasn’t sure but probably $450-500ish. They said they would call surveillance and let him know.

About ten minutes later they came back to the table and told us what Euro buddy already did. He got up to smoke and an unknown guy sat in his seat and played his stack before racking up and leaving. They said they couldn’t determine exactly how many chips he had but thought it was about $430. They brought him $430 in chips, apologized, and he started playing again.

At a local casino, a reg left his car keys at the cash table as a placeholder while he was gone getting more money or something. He was gone for quite a while. Apparently, some unknown player drifted by and snatched the keys. There was a remote starter on the keyring, so the guy was basically out in the parking lot trying to find the vehicle by making it honk.

The reg came back to his seat and shat himself over his missing keys. I don't know what happened after that because I had to leave.

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Leaving my chips at the table in charity rooms makes me nervous. Absolutely no security or cameras at some of these. The people running the "cage" are just average joes with no chip counting experience. (Not their fault, of course.)

A charity I used to play at, some of the regs would play "fun" pranks like grabbing hunks of another player's stack while they were using the restroom and "hiding" those chips in their own stack until the player comes back and finally notices.

That's the kind of "prank" that gets people injured.

its called theft and unless its called out to the table before he does it it could be a freeroll to see if you noticed when you return.
it been done to many myself included by not friends but acquaintances in smaller games. in larger games most are smart enough to leave your chips alone.

After having heard of several thefts of chips at poker tables, I do the following when I play in cash games:
- I never take more than a quick bathroom break (I stopped leaving my chips when getting food)
- I never leave cash on the table when I leave the table. I announce how much I am pulling off.
- I put green chips ($25) under my red ($5) or white ($1) stacks. I pull off the black chips ($100). If significant enough, I pull off my green chips as well. I announce how much I am pulling off.
- I take my gold plated pocket watch card protector with me
- I don't rely on other players or the dealer to "remember" me. Dealer shifts end and players leave and/or take breaks as well.

Among the scams I have heard executed was a woman who stood behind a player for awhile, then after he took a break, came back to the table, claimed to be his wife/girlfriend, picked up his chips and left. Similarly with a guy who claimed to be a brother.

Another time, a game broke and a dealer was sitting at the broken table with a racked up stack of chips (over $500). A guy came by and the Dealer asked him if he had been at the broken table. The guy said yes, took the chips and was never seen again. The Player came to the table some time later to discover the theft.

A regular described a time where he had two green stacks ($1,000), taken off the table. He was taking a quick break and he was next to move to the main game from a must move table. Before the Floor got his chips ready to rack up and count I guess somebody just took the two stacks like they were moving them to the main game. Nobody noticed.

A drunk player I was playing with had a $1,000 chip on top of his rack. He went to the bathroom and when he came back to the table, claimed it was stolen. It might have been, or he might have taken it with him. He was really drunk. And even though I was sitting next to him, I wasn't paying close attention to his chips. He asked FW to look at the tape. Which they did. The outcome was they claimed not to see anything unusual on the tapes (whatever that means).

I would bet that the casino in this OP made a note of who did the stealing and banned them for life. They just can't get the reputation for allowing this kind of thing to happen on a regular basis.

You're correct about the freeroll angle. Not to mention there's no way of telling just how many chips they grabbed in the first place.

At this same place, I once saw a reg steal $1 - yes, $1 - from the dealer bucket. He was sitting near the bucket across from the dealer. I was in seat 2 and was watching him. This guy was fullblown glaring at the dealer's face, who was distracted by something else. The player's hand was very slowly and methodically creeping it's way into the bucket, still staring at the dealer's face. He finally reaches into the bucket and grabs a single $1. It reminded me of a claw machine. Just as he was lifting his hand out, he glanced over at me and dropped the bill. (This guy's stack was around $20, btw.) I guess you have to take your edges any way you can.

Is it really just that easy to steal chips and cash out?

Stealing the chips is fairly easy it seems but it happens very rarely. People who lurk are highly suspicious in general but I suppose if you dress right it can be done under the radar.

As for cashing out there is no need to. I would imagine they take the chips out of the casino and get an accomplice to cash them in at a later date.

The big gamble is that none of the other people at the table realize you're not the chip stack's legitimate owner.

My N is small but people have noticed immediately every time it's happened at my table.

just make it less appealing to steal your chips. just like you do with your car or house. you dont leave the keys in the lock.
dont leave too much on the table when you are away. and put something on top of your chips, and that stops 90% of the ones that will choose you for their victim.

When I go to the bathroom I make sure I go all-in beforehand because of my obvious dwindling stack, in fact I assume that I lose the all-in and walk away before the hand is over never to return to the table.