Pre flop action is completed and the dealer goes to put out the flop. Dealer burns one card then counts off 4 cards and put out the flop. Dealer claims that the cards stuck together but everyone at the table saw her peal off 4 cards individually. Floor is called and again the dealer claims the cards stuck together. No one at the table corrects the dealer, we all just wait for the ruling. Floor decides to turn all 4 cards over, mix them up and selects one random card as the next burn. The other three become the flop. Correct ruling?

Floor followed TDA guidelines:

Yup, I believe some rooms still just reshuffle the stub and bring a brand new flop, but the TDA rule is becoming more common.

I'm gonna call absolute BS that everybody at the table actually witnessed that because players are never paying that much attention to the dealer. Regardless, once the four card flop is dealt, there should never been any sort of guessing game, or assumptions, about which card doesn't belong and which three are "right" as there is no way to be 100% sure how the four card flop happened.

yes

So then she pealed off 5 cards total? It's 3 cards plus one burn card.

Either way, no matter how it happened the ruling was standard.

Correct. She pulls the burn and sets it where the burns would go. Then peals off 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and flops. I exaggerated a bit with "everyone" saw it. I saw it in the 6 seat and the folks in the 8,7 and 5 seat all agreed they saw it. She was adamant that they stuck together. I guess maybe if she peals 4 by accident she gets in trouble? Not sure. Either way just something I haven't seen before.

The rule is written as it is basically because of what you experienced - people will never agree which card was the extra one, even when they are all sure about it. Don't bother trying. Always randomly pick one to make the next burn card.

nah she won't get in trouble but if the floor keeps getting called over for the same dealer she might eventually get written up.

What is the logic in not having the randomly chosen card not shuffled back into the deck? Despite this burn card being public information, it can help some players more than others based on their holdings.

Probably similar to the arguments for the previous rulings on prematurely dealt turns (Complete flop action, deal natural river as turn, complete turn action, shuffle in prematurely dealt turn and deal river off the top). It maintains the character of the hand most closely.

My argument for not shuffling it in would be that knowing it's a burn and knowing it's in the deck aren't really different enough pieces of information to justify the loss of time & changing of the character of the hand.

The dealer and floor should never rely on what the players say in this situation. No matter well intentioned and correct you may be, it leaves too much room for players to lobby for the cards they want to stay on the board.

Mix them up while floor is looking away, then floor picks one at random to be the next burn.

I agree with this so just know I am not trying to argue.

A couple of months ago, I brought in the pre-flop bets, burned a card, and as I was peeling the flop cards I announced that there were 4 players in the hand. So, having 4 on my mind I peel 4 cards off the deck for the flop. While the cards are still facedown on the felt, I recognize the brain fart and stop myself. I apologized to the table and pointed out what I had did. I slightly fan the 4 cards to clearly show there were 4 of them. I then pull the last card off of the top back onto the stub, still facedown where nothing could be seen.

I say "Now it is right." and look around at everyone at the table. Nobody seemed to care so I then spread the 3 cards as the flop.

Afterwards, I thought about it I figured I probably should have called the floor. I am pretty sure he would have had me do exactly what I did, but calling him still would have been proper.

Besides not calling the floor, does anyone have a problem with what I did?

Next situation a few weeks later, I am at a table where the deck is in terrible shape. The cards are constantly sticking together. It is rather humid out and that did not help. The shuffler is red lighting every 3 or 4 shuffles (gets it right when redone).

Anyway, I go to put out a flop, as I peel three cards off of the deck to the felt, I can tell the 2nd peel was two cards stuck together, but my hands were faster than my brain and did a 3rd peel anyway.

I immediately stop and explain to all of the players what happened. I confirm it by slightly fanning the 4 cards.

I called over the floor. He was slightly slow getting to the table so a bunch of the players just told me to drag the top card back onto the stub. I agreed with them but explained I wanted the floor telling me to put the card back on the stub and not just do it myself.

The floor came over a little bit later, not too late. I explained what happened, and a bunch of the players then just argued I needed to pick up the top card and put it back on the stub. The floor thought a second and told me to do that.

I did it and the game went on. The only thing I thought about later was that the flop cards were out of order. The 2nd and 3rd cards were switched. This doesn't matter from a poker perspective, but if there was any side bets based on the flop it could have mattered (some flop side games pay double if a card is in the middle position). Since was a low limit game there was no side bets so no one cared.

I think the floor ruling was easily within the spirit of the rules. The 3 cards that were supposed to be on the flop were and the turn burn card was also correct so I actually like the ruling. I feel like randomly picking one to be the burn would have been wrong in this situation.

As for the OP .. correct procedure in most rooms these days.

JUST REMEMBER ...

1) In OP the cards were exposed .. this is a slam dunk with the scramble and selecting the Burn for the Turn. Make sure to put the card on top of the stub!

2) In JimL case no cards were exposed and there really should be no issue with attempting to put the stub back together. If there's an objection, then call the Floor and see how it goes down .. either way.

3) Note that in a 'forgot to Burn' spot it's the same procedure, only the 'chosen' card is the 1st Burn.


Just remember that there's a stark difference between too many cards and premature cards. GL

@Jim

Side bets on the flop are allowed? Where i play there is no betting action allowed at all on what happens during a hand.

We can't even agree to a bomb pot there (even if all players agree)

My only issue with not calling the floor is that someone might say something only after action on the flop is supposed to start. Player A bets the flop and player B is like "wait, what happened here? Wasn't there 4 cards out? Floor!"
I don't think side action is technically allowed in any regulated casino in the US? In my experience most places only stop it if it gets out of hand though or another player complains about it.

As a floor, if the cards were still face down, and the dealer was 100% about what happened (dealing four cards vs two sticking together), I would have them correct it.

Once they are turned face up, it's getting the mix-and-remove-one treatment. IMO, the dealer can't be 100% as to what happened or else they wouldn't have turned the flop over.

Most casinos (all casinos???), do not allow side bets. However, many casinos will look the other way on side bets for their high limit games as long as it doesn't interfere or slow down the game itself. In these cases most players know each other and if a big deal was made about it by the casino the players would just settle things on the side anyway.

It is a very grey area.

Side bets can create issues for sure .. very 'well run' $5 PLO home game had a couple of Players (One action, one tight-ish Pro) starting to play red/black Flops with triples on monotone Boards. Started out as $10 (of course) and then ultimately escalated to a 'one time' $100 .. of course it came a monotone Board and then the Pro goaded the Action Player to press the $400 into the next Board .. of course it came monotone the other way, which led the AP moving over 70% of his stack to the Pro.

Almost immediately 3 Players racked up a bit earlier than normal. Not a full protest, but a silent one knowing that the chips had moved from 'in play' to 'hard to get'. As most AP go, they either go 4 buy-ins deep or sun run it up only to ultimately lose it back. Well, there would be no losing it back anymore so these Players decided it was time to go.

It wrecked the night for the Host (shorter game) and Players (losing sessions). Not sure if the Host talked to the Pro or not but it was pretty obv what happened. GL