Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >


Psychology Discussions of psychology as applied to poker and other gambling games.

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-02-2018, 10:37 PM   #51
Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10,685
Re: Worth Discussing

Let me give an example of the usefulness of fine motor skills at online poker

My gaming mouse has 12 buttons on the side (I only use 7 of them so far). Sometimes I press a wrong button with my thumb: the minraising button instead of the one that raises to 2.5 bb. This loses some EV. Besides, I need to train my reflexes to 'remember' which button does what.

I'm only about as fast as a median online grinder, i.e. thrice slower than Dmitry, and can only play at 3 Spin & Go tables (often just 2), making decisions once in 3-4 seconds, but even so, I think I'd have to spend an extra second to locate the correct hotkey combo on the keyboard or to hover the mouse over the correct betting button at the table (hence 5 seconds per decision) if I didn't use the extra mouse buttons, and that would either lower my poker volume by 1.5 times or reduce the amount of information that my brain can realistically process when making decisions within the short timeframe.

Also, the highest undertitle for ordinary 2+2 posters is called Carpal Tunnel for a reason - it's a professional disease of those online grinders who neglect the physique instead of buying vertical mice. The sedentary lifestyle may also eventually lead to back problems. Even though the said issues are common in all those who work at the computer, they're especially probable in those who play long sessions without taking a walk.

I know that the above considerations are secondary to learning the strategy, just I wanted to present a view from the perspective of online poker where the finite speed of human cognition becomes the performance bottleneck once one grasps the strategy at an expert level and moves up to the high stakes.

I didn't mean to glorify 10-tabling - I actually think that, during bankroll building, a good rule of thumb is not to play at more tables than the average number of players at the table at the given poker format - but once the bankroll grows large and one's hourly winrate reaches a plateau because there are too few weak opponents at higher stakes, one faces a choice between improving the strategic knowledge even further and improving the multitabling ability, possibly dumbing down the thought process in order to handle more tables efficiently without sacrificing too much accuracy.

As much as you may dislike it, the latter option is often the low-hanging fruit because of the rapidly diminishing returns on the investment of time and effort into learning the strategy, and also because the hourly variance grows quadratically in the buy-in amount but only linearly in the table count.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 11:10 AM   #52
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Euro
Posts: 743
Re: Worth Discussing

There is an optimal tension. There is a mode (the state of the mind) that's needed to process the poker information (and get the grind done, kind of an addiction and a momentary comfort zone, as a mode also).

When I play poker, my mind soon is not only in the mode but also in a zone that includes the knowledge, experience, mode (focus) and it develops as an expert mind and an expert focus.

The processes done are done by the mind and the brain (a body part), not by the knowledge itself (hardware (brain), software (mind) vs. the poker knowledge). Execution, unconscious (knowledge) competence (brain/mind); pick your definition.
pucmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 03:19 PM   #53
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 20
Re: Worth Discussing

This has been a very interesting thread and made me think a lot about the things I know about my own mental game. I played online until Black Friday at low to mid-stakes. Speaking strictly about those "old days" I can agree with Mason to a large degree, but not entirely. Online was not a huge mental exercise for me, sitting at home in my own comfort and never having to interact with anyone other than just observing their play and the occasional chat.

I missed poker after I could no longer play and, now that I am retired, I have started playing live for the first time, as well as a little online on a crypto site where there is no real stress.

I do not have the money for a coach of any kind, but I read incessantly, books, this forum, watch tournaments on youtube, have a CORE subscription, etc. I study more than I play since I only play when the WSOPc comes to the closest casino that is four plus hours away (three times a year).

But, for me, the mental game is a huge part of live poker versus very little for online. This has to do with my personality makeup, which includes being very introverted and shy, and quite intimidated in the live setting. I know these things and I work on them. I am also playing with more money live than I do online and, not being rich, there is stress about that involved, so fear is also a factor (even though I only play with money I can afford to lose, I still don't like losing). I am pretty self-aware, but at the same time, a mental coach would probably help me a great deal. So would a coach dealing with how I play and plugging leaks. And some of my leaks are mental, too. Honestly, I think this goes for anyone.

I do find that considerations of the mental aspects of the game are super important to me live. Be it sports techniques or what some would call new age mumbo jumbo, this stuff is helpful in all walks of life (assuming good coaches and not BS artists). Tournament poker involves dealing with fatigue, for example. It deals with people staring you down. It deals with trying to not give off tells. It deals with some people talking s*it to rattle you. It deals with not wanting to be seen by others as an idiot. All of these are mental issues one has to deal with. or at least I do.

But, does anyone really think things like the following are useless in poker when they can be helpful in every other aspect of life? Mindfulness, visualizations, meditation, relaxation techniques, and so on. Yoga, for example, is wonderful for strong mental health. Frankly, these are the things that I need most at a live table. And, of course, I also need to know the game and pay attention to my opponents. And I work constantly on these things, but I certainly do not ignore the value of the mental.

So, maybe this is just a matter of different strokes for different folks, but Mason's breakdown is simply too simplistic for me and dismissive of things that may be very useful for many people.
carolinabay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:16 PM   #54
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,191
Re: Worth Discussing

It is possible to establish a baseline of playing that is computer-like and unaffected by emotions such as frustration?

Damn few people establish that "level" of play.

Do emotions affect human beings execution of their knowledge at the poker table? YES. In spades.

Therefore psychology is a critical element in success.
FellaGaga-52 is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online