I have the freedom and flexibility to play poker pretty much whenever I want.

One problem I've had over the years is that I have trouble quitting a session when I'm stuck. Even when I know I'm able to play again the next day.

I understand that poker should be seen as one long session, and that I should focus on playing optimally and long term results. And I am a long term consistent winner.

However, I keep track of every session (hours, profit, etc) and I hate booking a losing session.

Often times, it leads me to playing much later than I should (when I have to wake up early), and sometimes the game isn't even good anymore but I'm still playing because I'm stuck.

I know that booking wins and avoiding booking losses is good for morale. I like to see streaks of winning sessions in my poker journal. Often times by staying longer I do get unstuck and end up booking a win. It feels good to book a win.

When I have to book a loss, I feel myself steaming as I walk away and drive home. I actually usually don't even feel tilted at the table when I'm having a losing session because I think I can get unstuck. It's when I have to quit the session that I feel the tilt. It's booking the losing session that is the most tilting.

What is the best way to deal with this?

I've tried focusing on monthly results instead, which helps me make more rational decisions on when to leave (when the game is bad, when I'm tired, when I have to wake up early)

I've thought about practicing booking losses... just leave at a set time whether I'm up or down and disregard the session's results. I figured if I did it often enough I would become desensitized to booking losing sessions. But that sounds like an absurd thing to practice. Sometimes I can justify staying longer when the game is really good.

I find the emotions I have in regards to booking/accepting losses are very irrational but I can't seem to get rid of them.

Help?

Set a stop loss. Take a limited amount of cash with you that you are willing to lose like 3 Buyins for your game and when its gone go home.

That doesn’t address my problem. My problem is not wanting to leave even if I’m only down a small amount because I don’t want to book a loss

Losses happen. They are part of poker and even the best of the best are going to have days where they don't take home more than they sat down with. This is no different than the markets...some days are good and some are not. The key is to look long-term. Hell, it is the same with my career...nobody is going to win every case they are involved with across the span of a career.

If you have a modicum of ability, then the longer view should ALWAYS be where the focus is. A loss of a few thousand in one day is simply not the end of the world. Further, if a loss IS a problem, then maybe poker isn't where the money should be going right now...

The money isn’t the issue. I am well over-rolled. It’s not wanting to book a loss, even small ones, that’s the problem. It’s very tilting for me to get up when I’m red on the day.

My comment has nothing to do with being rolled for the game...rather, an endeavor where someone cannot handle a daily loss should probably not be chasing that financial road. I would give the same guidance to someone who wanted to play the market.

Losses happen. You HAVE to either deal with it or avoid the situation in its entirety.

sounds like you have it all worked out, why even ask for advice? A stop loss is below a big time charlie like you.

I am an OK player.

Players better than me have told me their fraction of session wins.

Over periods of one year or more, not just a few weeks or a few months.

Some tell me 65% winning sessions, 35% losing sessions.

Others tell me 70% winning sessions, 30% winning sessions.

Dude, good players lose about one session for every two winning sessions they have.

If you play "well", the winning sessions often are larger, and the losing sessions smaller.

Expecting the impossible will tilt anyone when it doesn't happen.

You gave him outstanding analysis. I think that a lot of us who played years ago were used to a steady 70% win/lose result at the lower limits, and now the game has changed (in my marginal experience). I look at the overall result and how I played now first thing. I'm still a winning player. I do lose a lot though and now I've gotten used to it. Bankroll is everything lol.

I say
1. Set the stop limit. You lose 2 buyins and leave. Mine's three.
2. Set a time limit. Make sure you leave yourself like +8 hours for getting home and getting to sleep before work.
3. Realize that you have a misunderstanding of this game. You cannot win all the time. That's chess, not poker.
4. Read Nassem's Fooled by Randomness or the whole INcerto series.
5. Study the works by the stoics.

with repetition write down and tell yourself that when you lose x amount of buyins you leave the table. visualize this before playing. see yourself getting up from the table and coming back later. write down I leave the table when I lose x buyins.

not I WILL but I leave or I always leave. like you have already done it before.

Have you ever looked into the thoughts, emotions and behaviours of not quitting at the time of it occuring? Not after the fact but actually at the time of it happening.

To look into it with all your energy and attention provides the fantastic opportunity to change.

This is a part of meditation and it is an absolute necessity in order not to fall into the damaging patterns your automatic mind has constructed.

I read you sometimes and seems you know a lot of self knewledge something i leak, can you explain more about this? how to focus in our emotions while we are tilted/ansieoxus or w/e ? i find it really hard to doo.

Thanks.

We can look at this clearly but only when we have understood the description of what I write below is not the actual thing. The word 'stress' for example is not the actual manifestation of stress. Or, like above, an inability to make a rational decision (quitting when down) is not the actual happening of this.

So the description of an emotional response is not the actual thing. In fact, the label, the word, is never the actual thing associated to it.

Now, one can look at stress and these emotional responses through language and description. It can all be very clever. You can read many books and articles about it. But one has to ask does this knowledge (of stress, tilt, being irrational etc.) actually help to end the response at the time of it occurring in a complete and direct manner?

For example, when one is feeling stressed, does noticing and simply labeling, "I'm feeling stressed" do away with the problem of stress altogether?

If it does not, let's do away with that approach.

Having gone into this, can you see that intellectually approaching the issue here you are only ever approximating it by labeling it in some manner. And you're never quite meeting the issue as it actually is.

Another way to put this is: if one looks and tries to analyse the situation ("I am feeling this because...") can you see how this is limited?

The analysis carried out by the mind is all built up from knowledge, which is a product of stored-up memory i.e. the past. And in actuality the issue happening is a fresh thing.


So this now leads to the question: Is it possible to look at the internal struggle (thoughts and emotions/physiological responses) and behaviours (typically irrational) going on without knowledge? without the word?

This requires a look into the movement of thought.

To go into this requires an understanding of the mind and meditation, which from my experience is far better understood in a dialogue or in some extensive way than in something short written (like on this forum).

All I can say right now is the possibility to break out of these issues is there. Because they are all self-related. And the possibility to end 'the self' exists.

And it is wonderful.

Chiggs,
I agree with Ducky, you offer excellent insight into the psychology forum. Just wanted to say thank you.

I used to be like this and from personal experience you will end up winning a bunch of sessions booking small to medium wins and the occasional big score. The problem is this will be offset by having huge losing sessions. Sure you won't lose to often and it will feel great when you are running good but take one or two huge losing sessions and they can cripple your monthly profits. I suggest reading Tendler's book The Mental Game of Poker and Schmidt's book Treat Your Poker Like a Business. I would eschew the second part of Schmidt's book that pertains to poker strategy as it is a bit aggro and outdated for today's live games. The first part however is very applicable and teaches you that winning poker takes time and volume. Which in live poker takes years to reach.

JD, two things work for me, and I have recently overcome this problem completely. YMMV.

1. Try hard to realize that there are 2 things you have to do in poker: win the most that you could have and lose the least that you could have. Look back on your play and point out areas where a lesser player would have called that river he knew he was beaten on, and pat yourself on the back for losing the minimum. Think of when you checked back for pot control and be happy you didn't bloat a pot that sucked you into a marginal call on the river. That's more important than inducing a spaz shove, in the long run.

Now I go home and brag about minimizing my losses as much as I brag about my killer wins. My friends know me and how I used to chase so they're happy to hear about either. "Got sucked out on 5 times and was card dead for 5 hours, and only lost one buy-in." That's a f'n win, man. Learn to pat yourself on the back for those. That separates you from the people who suck at poker. (and at life)

2. Remind yourself that you are edge gambling, not playing chess. Your edge is only realized in the long run. In any one hand/session/set of sessions, you are just gambling. (It's kinda fun!) Even the casino can have a losing day at one of its roulette tables, for example. In the long run, the casino's edge gambling pays them millions.

I used to have similar problem, couldnt stop playing. My solutions was to simply stop coming. I tried taking limited amounts of money, but then I would come back with more. So I told myself I will not come. No matter what, I will not come. Since then I play at home with friends, just for fun. And also online gaming, but I set my limit. For some reason, setting my limit while online gaming works for me.

Set goals for yourself that are under your control, not related to how much money you leave with, that can improve your game, like plugging a leak.

Benefits: it might take your mind off the current status of your stack. Success might help ease a session that isn’t successful monetarily. Not to mention improving your game might prevent some losing sessions in the first place

I had a similar thing as well. I was basically using wins as a drug, or at least a high, which would indicate using the game in an irrational manner. If money is a drug, chips are meth type thing. I wonder if this is your motive. OP what is your longest winning streak??

For sure that’s my issue too. I have an addictive personality and gambling is another one of my addictions that’s channeled into something positive (a profitable pass time). Logging wins in poker gives me a high and keeps me trudging along in life. Without gambling and my other various addictions I feel a deep emptiness in my soul. I guess I need to do more meditation and self reflection mumbo jumbo

My longest winning streak is around 23 sessions.
I have a high percentage of winning sessions to losing sessions ratio compared to other grinders because I tend to grind until I’m even..


Word to bluto’s post on focusing on things within my control, such as playing well, focusing, etc. It certainly isn’t easy though. Chasing the money gives me the adrenaline rush my addictive self seeks.

I suppose to shift my focus on things within my control would require that I maintain trust and confidence in my game - if I play well in good games, the results will follow in the long run, regardless of how I divide my sessions.

Your high winning percentage seems artificially inflated. Maybe you just need to view things differently. Winning streaks are fun—I get it. But in the long run, they're irrelevant.

Some years ago, I decided that I could have a winning session, a losing session, or a breakeven session—and I defined breakeven sessions fairly broadly, as anything between $60 down and $60 up. I usually play $6/$12 limit, so winning or losing 5 big bets doesn't seem like a big deal at those stakes—or that's how I decided to look at it. So now when I'm in a game $600 and get back to "only" $38 down after having been stuck $450, it's much easier for me to leave because I'm back in the breakeven range.

And lately I've started to redefine a win in terms of both time and money. If I manage to break even but have to play until 5 a.m. to do so, that's a mixed result. If I can book a winning session and also leave after playing for 6 or 8 hours instead of 12 or 15, that's a win-win. If I leave at a reasonable hour but lose a few hundred, that's a mixed result, but it's preferable to the first mixed result, I think—especially if I can have a productive next couple of days (both on and off the felt) and not feel that I have to recover from a marathon.

So maybe set some time parameters in advance. I might tell myself I'm going to play from noon until 8 p.m. on a Saturday. Then if I end my session anytime between 6 and 9 p.m., I've done well. But if I'm still playing after midnight, I've done very poorly. Change your personal definition of a successful session, and you may find it easier to leave when you're down.

Finally, just keep reminding yourself that there are a lot of ups and downs in poker and that all that really matters is your hourly win rate. That's the number you should be focusing on, not your winning streak or winning percentage.

Trouble to continue when one is up? That's why I prefer losing.

I've been considering not keeping records in terms of sessions, but in terms of racks of chips.

So when I'm up a rack, I book a +1. When I'm back to even, that's a -1. I'd only record fractional racks at the end of the session.

That way the record keeping is decouoled for how long you currently play. If you lose 2 racks you can't avoid recording it by playing longer until you're even.

The reason that I'm considering doing it is that is pretty easy (since we are allowed to use phones at the table) and it would allow me to better estimate hourly variance. But it would also have the effect of removing your ability to "hide" your swings by playing longer sessions.

(I recently played a session where I went from +2.5 racks to -1 rack to +4 racks. Just recording +4 racks in 10hr hides too much of the variance for my liking -- that's my main reason for wanting to do this. I feel that the 2.5 rack upswing, 3.5 rack downswing, and 5 rack upswing in the space of a few hrs is important data to capture)

Like that rack idea. Not sure if it is for the same reason. Not worrying to much about where you are in a session helps you play better, imo. So any little trick along the lines of now worrying about exactly where you stand is a good thing. It's actually kind of hard to pull off. But by buying several times, moving several times, going in and out of pocket several times ... I lose track sometimes. And play better.