Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Psychology Discussions of psychology as applied to poker and other gambling games.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-28-2018, 04:18 PM   #1
CC96
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 316
Stop when winning, continue when losing

Hi guys,

So recently I have really worked on my game mentally and tactically and my recent results have definitely shown that (bar a slight fortune of run good). I was once a very slim winner at 2NL (about 4bb/100) but I have recently played 5NL and made the move to 10NL.

5NL

Graph 1


10NL

Graph 2


Small samples I know xD

However the reason I am asking this question is I try to play about 90 min sessions, have a break and then continue again. However if I have been playing for about 40 mins and I profit about 1.5-2BI's I will then quit, obviously happy that I have made a profit and be content about that. However if I lose a few big pots it almost drives me to play more and I feel more determined to play (probably because I am down money). I have no problems with ending a session down money and I don't play on tilt as I know in the long run I should make a profit.

My main problem is being content with quitting a session early when I am up money which will usually actually cost me money as during these sessions I am playing on good/fishy tables. Could this self-consciously be that I relax more after being up money and don't want to play any longer?

Does anybody else ever have these problems as I believe it should be the other way around personally. Quit a session when down money and play more when your confidence is higher when up money.
CC96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2018, 03:28 AM   #2
JockoRocko
journeyman
 
JockoRocko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Wraeclast
Posts: 229
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

maybe my advice will be simple, but I think it's best to play while you feel good and enjoy the game.

Your tactics work well if you are doing it solely for the sake of entertainment, but for the sake of progress, you need to try to play more.
JockoRocko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 05:54 AM   #3
omgwasabi
enthusiast
 
omgwasabi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Vienna
Posts: 75
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Make a schedule, stick to it. If you plan to play 3 hours a day, play 3 hours a day, even when you are up, and stop even if you are down.
Obviously if you notice, that you are tilt, playing bad, stop earlier or set a stop-loss limit.
Basically, if you are rolled properly for a limit, having a losing day, or losing week should not affect you that much, because you know, that you can afford it and you know that you beat the limit in the long run (well, that is if you really do beat the limit)
omgwasabi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2018, 06:15 AM   #4
pucmo
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Euro
Posts: 580
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

It is probably a good idea to learn to do just the opposite of what comes naturally here. One can also change tables if the stack size bothers or there is another big stack or two with position.

When I play on schedule, I play hours (e.g. 5 hours per day means 3+2 hours) and the other thing then is that I play to build skill, as the money isn't yet significant enough for me and when it will be, I will be building rolls and moving up and down accordingly, so it won't be significant for me then either. Considering that I am aiming up to live plo1k.

Building skill and moving up is way more important than the money won or lost, and so it is about being rational rather than natural. Maybe even playing for charity to get the point further clear.
pucmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 09:04 AM   #5
tlrdlnfrm
newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 40
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

You probably unconsciously don't think you deserve to win money. (I have the same problem by the way). Ask yourself why that is.
tlrdlnfrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2018, 02:12 PM   #6
Quasar
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 306
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

you will generally be more confident and playing your best game when you are winning so cutting a session short for that reason seems a bad idea to me. it may be tempting after a losing run for psychological reasons and that's ok but you really need to work on not making that a habit

Last edited by Quasar; 02-21-2018 at 02:18 PM.
Quasar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 06:11 PM   #7
robert_utk
Pooh-Bah
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ValueTown
Posts: 3,510
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

In addition to the good behavioral advice given ITT, I just want to add that the initial motivation by the OP to quit early when up and play longer when down is classic loss avoidance economic misbehavior.

Both inclinations are rooted in the human tendency to avoid loss, thus quit early when ahead and stay longer when behind (to recover the loss).

So long as the session lengths mentioned by the OP are ballpark and there is no (very little) tilt involved, then just follow the advice given and stick to schedule.

I do disagree about confidence being an asset when enjoying a winning session. Poker players should be making rational decisions based on study and practice, regardless of up or down, confidence, fear, etc.
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 01:26 PM   #8
HU_Player
stranger
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Placeless
Posts: 12
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Hey CC96,

I can definitely relate. I posted about this few days ago in the HUSNG. What ChicagoRy said help me a lot. I quote him:

"Confidence can help a lot. Don't be scared money. Think less about if you're winning or losing in your sessions and just play. Think in terms of decisions, each good decision you make is improving your EV.

In a basic sense, imagine I give you $2 every time it lands on tails and you give me $1 when it lands on heads. That's an awesome deal for you, would you really get nervous when winning 4x in a row? Would you really get tilted when you lose 4x in a row? It sounds silly, but poker for a winning player is just a more complex version of that. Immerse yourself in the process and in the decisions and be confident that in the long run you'll do really well if you keep your focus in those places. At some point, the day to day results should seem practically irrelevant to you."

Original thread: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...r-day-1705679/
HU_Player is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 09:49 AM   #9
ICANTHUSNG
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 23
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

i think to be only slightly winning makes you uncomfprtable @ the tables. best way to improve is to study theory so you have conifdence in every steck deepth and situation.. gl
ICANTHUSNG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2018, 04:30 PM   #10
Aces123123
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 759
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

It really doesen't matter. I also play on when losing, but stop when winning.
I play scared when winning, so it is a good idea to stop. I get motivated when down, so I play on.

But it doesen't matter if you make most of the money when winning back losses that people with stop losses wouldn't have won back or if you make most of the winnings when running good.

So I have a stop win instead of a stop loss
Aces123123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2018, 02:30 AM   #11
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,622
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Hi Everyone:

When you’re winning, some of your opponents are probably losing, and many games will deteriorate when they’re losing. So that’s a reason to keep playing. The opposite is true when you’re losing, so that’s a reason to quit or change games.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2018, 02:50 PM   #12
Aces123123
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 759
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Everyone:

When you’re winning, some of your opponents are probably losing, and many games will deteriorate when they’re losing. So that’s a reason to keep playing. The opposite is true when you’re losing, so that’s a reason to quit or change games.
It is also posssible that winning or losing change their game in completley different ways. Losing rocks might get more aggressive and winners might become scared money or overly aggressive. Or call to often.

It is probably best to think how winning or losing affects you own game first. And then observe how other players react to losing or winning.
Aces123123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 03:41 AM   #13
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,622
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces123123 View Post
It really doesen't matter. I also play on when losing, but stop when winning.
I play scared when winning, so it is a good idea to stop. I get motivated when down, so I play on.

But it doesn't matter if you make most of the money when winning back losses that people with stop losses wouldn't have won back or if you make most of the winnings when running good.

So I have a stop win instead of a stop loss
From reading this, and I don't have to be correct, it sounds like your understanding of the underlying statistical theory that governs poker play needs some improvement. Specifically, it appears that you're letting the short term luck factor drive your decisions more than the expectation of a particular play. (An example would be to throw away a marginally profitable hand after just getting even.) Now their are times when this can be correct, usually when you're on a small bankroll, but it can cost you much in the long run.

Years ago, when I first began to get into poker, the subject of "money management" was everywhere as many players tried to always assure a winning session and also minimize their loses. If you're still thinking somewhat along these lines it should hurt your overall poker results.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 03:50 AM   #14
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,622
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces123123 View Post
It is also posssible that winning or losing change their game in completley different ways. Losing rocks might get more aggressive and winners might become scared money or overly aggressive. Or call to often.

It is probably best to think how winning or losing affects you own game first. And then observe how other players react to losing or winning.
I agree that what may be true in general may not be true for a specific opponent, and the more you accurately know about each opponent the better you should be able to do. But what is clear is that many of the marginal players you'll play against don't play as well when losing as they do when winning, while the experts don't have this problem.

In my psychology book I have much discussion of this and talk about three specific categories (or states) where poor play occurs. They are:

1. Tilt

2. Pseudo Tilt which can also be called expectation bias where a player decides that something else, usually the desire to get even for a session, is more important than playing well.

3. Searching where a marginal player who is doing poorly in a game begins to search for those strategies which will allow him to win as much as the best players but are not well thought out and thus his expectation is usually decreased.

But notice that none of this happens to a particular opponent who is doing well in a game.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 06:18 PM   #15
Phil Me Up
adept
 
Phil Me Up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 729
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I agree that what may be true in general may not be true for a specific opponent, and the more you accurately know about each opponent the better you should be able to do. But what is clear is that many of the marginal players you'll play against don't play as well when losing as they do when winning, while the experts don't have this problem.

In my psychology book I have much discussion of this and talk about three specific categories (or states) where poor play occurs. They are:

1. Tilt

2. Pseudo Tilt which can also be called expectation bias where a player decides that something else, usually the desire to get even for a session, is more important than playing well.

3. Searching where a marginal player who is doing poorly in a game begins to search for those strategies which will allow him to win as much as the best players but are not well thought out and thus his expectation is usually decreased.

But notice that none of this happens to a particular opponent who is doing well in a game.

Best wishes,
Mason
Interesting. I wouldn't think of this as a form of tilt necessarily @ first glance, as much as it's a symptom of just executing good tactics badly due to unemotional reasons/misunderstandings. But it's definitely something to look for at the table regardless.

Cheers.
Phil Me Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 08:01 PM   #16
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,622
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Me Up View Post
Interesting. I wouldn't think of this as a form of tilt necessarily @ first glance, as much as it's a symptom of just executing good tactics badly due to unemotional reasons/misunderstandings. But it's definitely something to look for at the table regardless.

Cheers.
Hi Phil:

One of the reasons my psychology book was attacked by the phony poker psychologists is that it contains a number of ideas and concepts that these people were completely unaware of and this is one of them.

A player on true tilt can stay tilted for a long time no matter what his recent results are. But a searcher or someone on pseudo tilt can quickly revert back to a more solid game if they win a hand or two and are now doing better in the game. However, the searcher may now adopt a negative strategy which just happened to win him a pot. Thus is overall expectation will decrease.

All of this is the result of the large short-term luck factor (which we statistians measure by the standard deviation). So, not understanding well how this works can also negatively affect your expectation.

Also, pseudo tilt and searching are not a form of tilt because the player still thinks in a rational manner. But they are different states that marginal players can enter which can negatively affect their expectation.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 03:13 AM   #17
Aces123123
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 759
Re: Stop when winning, continue when losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
From reading this, and I don't have to be correct, it sounds like your understanding of the underlying statistical theory that governs poker play needs some improvement. Specifically, it appears that you're letting the short term luck factor drive your decisions more than the expectation of a particular play. (An example would be to throw away a marginally profitable hand after just getting even.) Now their are times when this can be correct, usually when you're on a small bankroll, but it can cost you much in the long run.
Sorry for the late reply. This is more or less correct. I noticed that I try to protect my winnings. Since I know this isn't optimal, I tried to change, but I just couldn't So now I just leave the table instead.

Nowadays I mostly play mtts anyways, and tilt and other psycological weaknesses are not so important there.
Aces123123 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online