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Old 04-28-2018, 04:46 AM   #1
Chicagodude
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Should I Try to Change My Image?

I've been playing poker since 2004 and only playing a lot of live since 2016. I was a TAG online from 04 to 06 and have some nitty tendencies. I've noticed that in the last year I hear a lot of "he has aces or he has kings" when I raise with AQ or 88. People tend to always think I have AA or KK even though I raise about twice as much as I did last year. Sometimes I really am card dead and just don't play around with 10/4, J2, 83, 59 etc.

Would straddling sometimes or calling raises with suited connectors be of benefit to me long-term? Would people start reconsidering my tendencies with a few 2/7 opens and then showing the cards if everyone folds? Would it be in my long term interests to make some visible moves? I honestly don't know but want to get paid off more.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:09 PM   #2
sw_emigre
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Obv "it depends", but a couple of thoughts:

1. Anyone playing less than 20% and not doing stupid things (calling raises or 3bets when stacks aren't deep, not limp/calling or playing OOP) will seem like a nit to some people. You could call SCs if the stack depth and villians are good for you, but don't open up because you hope that will help later in the session. Far too often, that "later in the session" never shows up. The guy you built an image against busts out, or people just aren't paying enough atention and/or adjusting anyway, or the cards just don't fall he exact way you needed them to in order to capitalize on the supposed image you've created.

2. I am continually shocked that when a real nit raises 7x pre, they still might get a bunch of callers. Most people really do play their own hand.

3. I'd use the image to start making it 8x over a couple of limpers with hands like K5s, KTo, etc. Do that once or twice and people might start to loosen up against you. You'll seem more active without really doing much, since people remember "big moves" like an 8x raise. And one hand like this every hour is a massive boost to your WR. (I bet if you changed nothing about your game but added this once every 2 hours, you'd be pretty happy with the results.)

3a. Calling appropriately IP is ofc correct; but open up your postflop moves. Start raise-bluffing, betting when there's no cbet, or floating more.

4. I almost never show bluffs. I'd rather show when I have a real hand, then open up my range. But this is so dependent on what style you prefer to play.

GL
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:18 PM   #3
WorldzMine
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

People thinking I have AA or KK and just folding pre seems like a decent result when you are really opening a standard range. I really don't understand the complaint. It's much better than getting flatted in 5 spots and having to x/f the flop.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:57 AM   #4
Nepeeme2008
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

If you constantly play with the same people, I don't think you can do much to change their long established perception of your playing style.
Best thing to do is probably look for a new venue to play, if possible.
What I try to do is, and I'm not really sure if this really has any bearing, call light on the river when I'm pretty sure I'm beat and the bet isn't too big.
I'll call down second pair for example light and show my hand as if I believe I have the winner. Well, sometimes I actually do.
I think this encourages villains to get involved with you.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:14 PM   #5
callipygian
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagodude View Post
I've been playing poker since 2004 and only playing a lot of live since 2016. I was a TAG online from 04 to 06 and have some nitty tendencies. I've noticed that in the last year I hear a lot of "he has aces or he has kings" when I raise with AQ or 88. People tend to always think I have AA or KK even though I raise about twice as much as I did last year. Sometimes I really am card dead and just don't play around with 10/4, J2, 83, 59 etc.

Would straddling sometimes or calling raises with suited connectors be of benefit to me long-term? Would people start reconsidering my tendencies with a few 2/7 opens and then showing the cards if everyone folds? Would it be in my long term interests to make some visible moves? I honestly don't know but want to get paid off more.
Lots of misunderstandings here.

First, you want to play well, regardless of what other people think. How to play well is a topic for a different forum, but suffice it to say that it's not obvious. Which leads into ...

Second, even if you play well, people will think you don't. Loose players will think you're too tight and passive players will think you're too aggressive. That's fine because ...

Third, whenever they put you on a range that differs from your actual range, they will make Fundamental Theorem of Poker mistakes. If they think you never bluff but you do, 100% of your bluffs will work; if they think you'll call down super light but you don't, they bet too much and you will win more often than you ought to.

Fourth, you want to encourage, not discourage, any ranging errors they make. If they think you have KK+, never show them a hand worse than KK unless forced to. If they're overfolding, then you should bluff too often. If they're overcalling, then yoy should value bet more thinly.

Fifth, when you open up, do it gradually. Don't open AA, KK, and 72o. Instead, take the best hand you'd otherwise fold and play it instead. Repeat when you're comfortavle with the expanded range. Likewise, if you want to tighten up, fold the worst hand you would have played.

Finally, just a quick strategy note: what you raise should be dependent on your position. You should in fact be a huge nit from early position and a lagtard from late position. And this will create even more FTOP errors because you'll raise lik top 40% from the button and people will think you have KK+, or you'll raise like top 10% UTG but people will remember that hand where you opened 76s but forget that it was on the button.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:36 PM   #6
Chicagodude
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Lots of misunderstandings here.

First, you want to play well, regardless of what other people think. How to play well is a topic for a different forum, but suffice it to say that it's not obvious. Which leads into ...

Second, even if you play well, people will think you don't. Loose players will think you're too tight and passive players will think you're too aggressive. That's fine because ...

Third, whenever they put you on a range that differs from your actual range, they will make Fundamental Theorem of Poker mistakes. If they think you never bluff but you do, 100% of your bluffs will work; if they think you'll call down super light but you don't, they bet too much and you will win more often than you ought to.

Fourth, you want to encourage, not discourage, any ranging errors they make. If they think you have KK+, never show them a hand worse than KK unless forced to. If they're overfolding, then you should bluff too often. If they're overcalling, then yoy should value bet more thinly.

Fifth, when you open up, do it gradually. Don't open AA, KK, and 72o. Instead, take the best hand you'd otherwise fold and play it instead. Repeat when you're comfortavle with the expanded range. Likewise, if you want to tighten up, fold the worst hand you would have played.

Finally, just a quick strategy note: what you raise should be dependent on your position. You should in fact be a huge nit from early position and a lagtard from late position. And this will create even more FTOP errors because you'll raise lik top 40% from the button and people will think you have KK+, or you'll raise like top 10% UTG but people will remember that hand where you opened 76s but forget that it was on the button.
This is outstanding advice, thanks so much!
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:37 PM   #7
Chicagodude
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
If you constantly play with the same people, I don't think you can do much to change their long established perception of your playing style.
Best thing to do is probably look for a new venue to play, if possible.
What I try to do is, and I'm not really sure if this really has any bearing, call light on the river when I'm pretty sure I'm beat and the bet isn't too big.
I'll call down second pair for example light and show my hand as if I believe I have the winner. Well, sometimes I actually do.
I think this encourages villains to get involved with you.
never would have thought of that man, excellent advice
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:37 PM   #8
Chicagodude
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

I'm also thinking about raising with 22-66 and normally i do not
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:02 PM   #9
Phil Me Up
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Lots of misunderstandings here.

First, you want to play well, regardless of what other people think. How to play well is a topic for a different forum, but suffice it to say that it's not obvious. Which leads into ...

Second, even if you play well, people will think you don't. Loose players will think you're too tight and passive players will think you're too aggressive. That's fine because ...

Third, whenever they put you on a range that differs from your actual range, they will make Fundamental Theorem of Poker mistakes. If they think you never bluff but you do, 100% of your bluffs will work; if they think you'll call down super light but you don't, they bet too much and you will win more often than you ought to.

Fourth, you want to encourage, not discourage, any ranging errors they make. If they think you have KK+, never show them a hand worse than KK unless forced to. If they're overfolding, then you should bluff too often. If they're overcalling, then yoy should value bet more thinly.

Fifth, when you open up, do it gradually. Don't open AA, KK, and 72o. Instead, take the best hand you'd otherwise fold and play it instead. Repeat when you're comfortavle with the expanded range. Likewise, if you want to tighten up, fold the worst hand you would have played.

Finally, just a quick strategy note: what you raise should be dependent on your position. You should in fact be a huge nit from early position and a lagtard from late position. And this will create even more FTOP errors because you'll raise lik top 40% from the button and people will think you have KK+, or you'll raise like top 10% UTG but people will remember that hand where you opened 76s but forget that it was on the button.
Epic. So much +EV advice here.
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:17 PM   #10
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Hi Everyone:

The following is a chapter from my book Real Poker Psychology which some of you may find helpful. It's actually a rewrite from one of my Poker Essays books.

Best wishes,
Mason

Appropriate Image


One aspect of successful poker is what I like to call “appropriate image.” The idea is to match your image to the game you are playing so that you can manipulate your opponents, allowing you to win more money. As mentioned before, I don’t consider image to be a major part of winning play since it’s my belief that if you play strategically well, your image will take care of itself. However, following is what I think are the best images for a number of different forms of poker. By the way, I’m only addressing middle-stakes play. Games that are very large or very small can work differently.

Before we start, here’s my criterion for appropriate image. Basically, you want to see what mistakes your opponents are making and then encourage them to exaggerate these mistakes. For instance, if your opponents are calling too much, you would like them to call every time. If they are not calling enough, you would like them to fold every time. Also, the following is what I believe to be generally true, although a particular opponent may behave much differently.

Game No. 1: High draw, jacks or better to open. This is a form of poker that I played a lot many years ago, but with the changed laws in California which first occurred in the Los Angeles area in 1987, high draw is essentially dead in our public cardrooms. However, it’s my suspicion that it’s still a feature in many home games.

The major error in this game is that a poor-playing opponent calls too much, especially if he holds the joker in his hand. Since most pots are not too large due to only two rounds of betting, your opponents’ incorrect calls can be significant errors and add a great deal to your profits. Consequently, the best image for you is one of a loose lively player. You should only rarely bluff but somehow make your opponents think you bluff all the time, and one way to accomplish this is to raise with marginal hands in certain positions. An example is to “pop” a late-position opener with a pair of aces and then to draw three.

Game No. 2: Ace-to-five lowball. This is another game that due to the changed laws in California that go back to 1987 we hardly see anymore. And while it may be unfamiliar to many players today, it was once much more popular in the cardrooms of California than the high draw games.

Before the draw, most poor-playing opponents call too much, but after the draw, they don’t call enough. The before-the-draw error is not too costly since the edge between many lowball hands is not that great. However, after the draw, those opponents who will not call when they are last to act with something like a jack or a queen are making a serious mistake. This is especially true because pots are typically bigger than in high draw. Thus the best image is one of a tight player. The ability to steal pots can easily turn an otherwise marginal participant into a significant long term winner.

Game No. 3: Limit Texas hold ’em. One of the characteristics of hold ’em is that you do not flop that many good hands. Also, some flops appear where it’s likely that none of the cards showing have hit anyone’s hand. An example would be the 993.

This means that the ability to steal pots becomes crucial in this game. Consequently, a tight image is most important, perhaps more important in limit hold ’em than in any other game.

The exception would be against very weak opponents (who are perhaps new to the game) who don’t yet understand that calling with one overcard with several players still to act behind them can be suicide. In games that feature a number of these players, you’ll just have to show your opponents a hand.

Game No. 4: Seven-card stud. Many players in this game do play too many hands on third street. On the other hand, the pots quickly get so big that it often becomes correct to chase. The exception is when your opponent’s board has become very scary. Perhaps he has paired his door card or has something like a four-flush showing. Again, this means that the ability to steal a pot, even just every now and then, can add significantly to your earn. Since the pots do get extremely large, it’s only rarely wrong for your opponent to call on the end with a weak hand. However, throwing away the winning hand in this game is clearly a disaster. Again, a tight image seems to be what one should strive for.

Game No. 5: Razz. For those who don’t know, razz is seven-card stud played for low. The major error that bad players make in this game is to call on an early street when they shouldn’t. For example, assuming that you started with a good three-card hand and you catch a baby on fourth street, if your opponent has caught bad (either he now has a big card or he has made a pair), you would like for him to call and the best razz players seem to have the ability to gain these calls. They do this through non stop talking that at times can be irritating to their opponents. The conclusion is that in this game, as in high draw, a loose lively image is what one should strive for.

Game No. 6: No-Limit Texas Hold ’em. One important characteristic of no-limit hold ’em is that the bets usually get larger on each successive betting round. Thus the ability to get one or two of these large bets paid off in a session can mean the difference between being a small loser and a significant winner. So clearly a loose image is what you should strive for. This is also true for pot-limit hold ’em.

Game No. 7: Tournament poker. When observing tournaments one of the most important concepts is to take advantage of tight play after the early stages of the tournament when this type of action develops. In fact, when observing the best tournament players when they are in good chip position they are constantly raising when first in hand after hand, and since there are antes usually in play after the first few levels, being able to steal these pots is quite valuable. So at first this seems as if a tight image is best.

However, if you’re raising hand after hand, how can you have a tight image? So this implies that a lose image may be better. This way these players who are trying to take advantage of others tight play might leave you alone which will now give you more opportunities to take advantage of your opponents who are trying to survive by playing too tight.
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Old 05-12-2018, 04:49 AM   #11
Chicagodude
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Thank you Mason, I've read a couple of your books sir. Thanks for your time.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:43 PM   #12
ItsJustLove
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Always fire up a live session with an immediate bluff!
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:07 AM   #13
Chicagodude
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Re: Should I Try to Change My Image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsJustLove View Post
Always fire up a live session with an immediate bluff!
I'm taking your advice brother!
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