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Making Unnecessary folds Making Unnecessary folds

04-17-2019 , 07:33 AM
I'm very much a "feel player" and it generally works out for me but in a particular area I take it too far . That is when I'm facing a bet that probably is ahead of my range but it's not certain and with pot odds I should call unless I had some very very solid read on my opponent .
It's stupid because like yesterday I managed to fold QQ in 3bet pot on 764r flop after betting and getting called and raised (3 way pot) . Ok it doesnt sound insanely bad , depending on the players ,but the trouble is I had to put 30k in to win a 140k pot (tournament not cash obv ) and sure enough one guy had JJ the other 98s
Ive done this a number of times lately and the majority of the time I would have had the best hand... considering the pot odds I'm getting it's obv a huge error to fold the best hand even 1/3 of the time so seeing that I'm folding the best hand more often than not is very tilting

The trouble is it seems to be the amygdala hijack . Now I just read about this but it's like a snap judgment based on emotion or fear , rather than logic . As I said though I do tend to use that quick feel based decision making process when I play and most of the time it works for me .. but these snapfolds of strong hands seems to be fear based and letting me down . It's not just about me losing my whole stack either . Sometimes I make silly folds even when Im facing a bet which is just 1/6 of my stack . It's like I can't stand to be coolered and the lack of control that comes with that part of the game
I have to say , I'm not a noob , lol I've played over 100k tourneys and I didn't always have this issue - it seems to develop along with me me trying to outplay people I seem to take it too far and try to be clever but I really don't have strong enough reads to make these folds and it seems fear based more than anything but fear of what ? Is it an ego thing where I want to be outplaying people and I don't like just calling and losing simply because I'm high in my range but he happens to be higher ?
It's not fear of losing exactly it's more like fear of lack of control / helplessness like when I'm just coolered sometimes I'd rather fold to avoid the times when I'm coolered despite then passing up the overall +ev opportunity
Fear of boredom / depression and negative emotions ? If I have a big stack I have optimism but losing a couple of cooler hands can depress me because it's like whats the point of putting in all the work only for the cards to run against you and you lose anyway.. maybe I try to circumvent that ?
Tbh I get really mad when they just have what it looks like they have and I call and sure enough they have it... but sometimes Im making folds with good pot odds where I even beat some of their value/protection bet range . I guess I snapfold thinking "I wouldn't have worse hands there" but that doesn't mean they wouldn't..
Anyone got any insights in to the psychology of this ?

Last edited by Frogman3; 04-17-2019 at 07:53 AM.
Making Unnecessary folds Quote
04-17-2019 , 09:01 PM
I feel like I wrote this. I do very similar risk adverse plays when winning and am quite the opposite when losing, even slightly.

I’ve been playing very seriously/borderline professionally for like 6 years with very little improvement wrt problem.

I’m interested how some veterans have dealt with this.
Making Unnecessary folds Quote
04-18-2019 , 03:31 AM
This is an issue of the mind of course. From the stimulus of facing raises or bets your mind has automatically formed a habitual perception that this means "they have it".

How can you break this automatic habit?

1) By understanding how it was formed.

Your mind is jumping from stimulus to response because (in your mind) a memory has formed that has wired that it knows exactly what these bets and raises mean.

"I've seen they have me beat in these (similar) situations."

What's important to be aware of is that memory is often formed from a negativity bias.

Our minds tend to record situations that affected us negatively rather than neutral or "small" wins because they are wired that way. It's essentially part of the survival mechanism (if our memories didn't record tigers are dangerous then we wouldn't spot the danger next time).

So from this memory there is the aforementioned automatic thought. And from this you act.

This leads to what is hopefully a clear and obvious solution:

2) The breaking of automation: By paying full attention moment-to-moment when you play.

An attentive mind spots the danger of you automatically acting out this reaction; as it is aware of what is happening internally with your thoughts.

An attentive mind considers each situation afresh. Because the reality is each situation in poker is always new (it is never exactly the same).

This is an incredibly valuable thing to go into. And is of far greater value than any "solution" that forms another habit.
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04-18-2019 , 06:18 PM
Sometimes in poker you just have to lose. You have to make questionable calls or you'll be exploited all day. Memorize these two statements. It will help. I had to memorize them too.
Making Unnecessary folds Quote
04-18-2019 , 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiggs
This is an issue of the mind of course. From the stimulus of facing raises or bets your mind has automatically formed a habitual perception that this means "they have it".

How can you break this automatic habit?

1) By understanding how it was formed.

Your mind is jumping from stimulus to response because (in your mind) a memory has formed that has wired that it knows exactly what these bets and raises mean.

"I've seen they have me beat in these (similar) situations."

What's important to be aware of is that memory is often formed from a negativity bias.

Our minds tend to record situations that affected us negatively rather than neutral or "small" wins because they are wired that way. It's essentially part of the survival mechanism (if our memories didn't record tigers are dangerous then we wouldn't spot the danger next time).

So from this memory there is the aforementioned automatic thought. And from this you act.

This leads to what is hopefully a clear and obvious solution:

2) The breaking of automation: By paying full attention moment-to-moment when you play.

An attentive mind spots the danger of you automatically acting out this reaction; as it is aware of what is happening internally with your thoughts.

An attentive mind considers each situation afresh. Because the reality is each situation in poker is always new (it is never exactly the same).

This is an incredibly valuable thing to go into. And is of far greater value than any "solution" that forms another habit.
Thank-you for such a well laid out response that isn’t just some catch phrase. Your bring new light to a dark problem.
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04-22-2019 , 05:04 PM
Yeh great post , thanks

Breaking the automation so I can disrupt some of those learned patterns (maybe some learned years ago) which aren't accurate/helpful anymore , if they ever were

I've def managed to stop myself doing it the majority of the time (need to keep reminding myself) after reading and thinking about your post . So thanks
Making Unnecessary folds Quote
04-24-2019 , 11:42 PM
I know exactly these scenarios. The problem is being super aware of your opponents. Its harder in mtts but try nt to make folds based on readless actions. Genetally ur facing weaker opposition (nt always the case)

Im the worst for folding in mtts tho (they always have it )
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