One thing I *try* to do to prepare myself for bad beats is be ready for them before I even put my money in the middle. Like if I flop a nut straight in holdem, pot it, get called, turn puts a twoflush that's otherwise a blank on the board, I pot it, get raised, and get it in. I know that at absolute worst I'm up against a set or a fourflush which I'm way ahead of, so I tell myself there's an 80% chance I win and a 20% chance I lose, so be ready.

Or when I have KK against a 10% 3-better. I raise, he 3-bets me, at that point I know he *could* have AA but usually doesn't, so I can 4-bet and *usually* be a head, but if I get 5-bet I'm screwed. Sure enough, I get 5-bet. Mathematically if AA and KK are the only hands he's going to 5-bet I can 4-bet fold profitably as long as I size it right. But if I forget to tell myself, "I'm going to 4-bet here, but if I get 5-bet I'm folding", the 5-bet tilts me a bit, I convince myself he's bluffing or has AK or QQ and I get it in anyway and act surprised when he flips over AA.

Sometimes I forget to do do that and get surprised when I catch a bad beat, sometimes even when I *remember* to do that I still want to win a specific hand so badly that I'm disappointed or even ticked when one of the other guy's outs comes.

What really gets to me though is when the disappointment sticks with me even long after I've left the table, like when I'm with my family or with my friends. I *never* gamble with money I can't afford to lose so it shouldn't bother me.

I don't like it when I get like this - I feel like I know how to play for fun, how to gamble WELL within my limits, how to assess my skill vs. everyone else's, how to EXPECT that there will be ups and downs. It really disappoints me when my emotions get the best of me.

Anyone else get like this?

Hope that made sense.

There wouldn't be a psych forum if other ppl didn't have the same issues. And this is why I tell ppl that poker for money is the greatest game ever invented. Almost everyone objects that chess is the greatest game but it's not true bec w/o natural talent a player can only go so far. My usual explanation for my non-playing friends as to why poker is the greatest is this:

'You can be in therapy for your entire life, you can climb the mountain and seek out the guru in his cave, but there is no greater path to self-realization than trying to play winning poker.'

Keep on working on it, that's all that you can do.

The resonates with me in so many ways. Playing winning poker makes me a better person in all walks of life

That's an interesting quote. I think I'm doing a subset of that in the "Is it okay to be addicted to poker?" thread ... not to very good reviews, but then again, that almost speaks for it. Similarly, the movie "Collateral Beauty" was destroyed by most of the critics, which, more than anything, revealed things about the critics -- not the movie. Poker indeed can be a critical element of the psychological and even spiritual path ... though I hesitate to say it is as potent a factor as anything.

Poker is unlike anything that I've ever experienced when it comes to understanding myself and others and it's the money aspect, the way we keep score, that does it. It's been called a 'game of people using cards' for a reason: it is being played in front of witnesses for a thing of value and a player's performance is on full display.

I go so far as to claim this: Show me a game of 9 multi-billionaires playing for pennies and I will show you someone who is upset bec he is losing.

What is going on inside almost every player's head is the same thing going on in the other heads as well. How it is handled is extremely important and self-examination along w/ the required adjustments can be very, very difficult. And I don't think that anybody has ever reached nirvana when it comes to that.

Funny you're sounding just like the professional golfers who call the game at their level a complete examination of themselves, and at times a total "mind____." At the peak levels of anything it must be like that. To many of us it is just a pastime and a game, just like golf is just a fun game for the masses.

I agree that it is the "scorecard in dollars" thing that takes the game over the top into epic psychological, even spiritual realms.

I wouldn't say the same thing is going on in everyone's head, but that the same internal challenge looms for anyone seeking those high levels.

Not to hijack my own thread, but if you're going to discuss the greatest game ever invented, don't overlook tennis. I could talk about tennis all day but the main thing I remember is how so often a tennis match can come down to who wants it more, and it's not just during the match itself - it's the weeks leading UP to the match - who wants it badly enough to spend 75 minutes working out when the other guy is working out 60, who wants it badly enough to have the grilled chicken salad and iced tea at McDonald's instead of the double quarter pounder extra value meal with a coke etc.

Like poker, who you know and how much money you have to start with can give you an advantage, because better equipment helps you play better.

I talk in my 4-year-anniversary post how approaching poker with the right mindset can greatly accelerate your learning curve and enjoyment of the game. Tennis is the same way - if you go into with a mindset of "I've been working out for a year, I should be able to beat people who have never actually taken lessons" yada yada you're just setting yourself up for frustration, but if you make having FUN your ONLY goal and let everything else including winning take care of itself enjoy it more.

I've experienced the highs of turning a boat when your opponent clearly flopped a straight and gets it in anyway, or having pocket 10s on a 67T board, getting it in on a blank turn and seeing the other guy flip over 89 but seeing the board pair on the river.

Those highs don't compare to when it's 4-4 30-40 in the 3rd set after 3 hours of play, your opponent hits a drop shot he thinks you're never going to get to you, with the last ounce of your energy you run it down and win the point.

LOL I can't believe I typed all that .

In my opinion, one big difference between tennis and poker is that everybody who takes up poker BELIEVES they can eventually get rich and retire young because of the luck factor. Let's face it, if you didn't at least play college tennis you have zero chance of ever becoming a tennis champion. Whether or not someone has the talent that's necessary to become a winning poker player isn't as evident as the talent necessary to become a tennis champion so everybody believes they could be the next Greg Raymer (who will never be a tennis champ LOL).

Mason used tennis (he's a player) in his psych book, fwiw. I don't include it in 'greatest' bec w/o the proper physique, the baseline of which is due to genetics, you can't perform at the highest level. Same as chess, but in the mind. But anybody can play poker and a live player will sometimes see someone who has a personal assistant to show him the cards and move the chips.

Poker is the greatest game of all time and the most democratic as well. Watching some multi-millionaire get really upset bec the grimy construction worker sitting next to him is crushing him in every pot they get involved in is one of the best things in life to witness if you are at all philosophically minded.

Thanks for this post.

yw, and thanks for posting that.

Over lunch just now I debated w/ myself regarding what I said in my last post re the multi-millionaire: 'Which is better? Watching the rich man get tilted bec the person he may consider beneath him beats him hand after hand or the pro w/ a life roll of $30K lose to the rich man bec the rich man is, in his mind, beneath HIM for being a 'drooler' that called a 4X open w/ 9-3 and beat his big pair?'

I've decided that the pro needs the money more.

Wow! Fun fact I was not aware of!

I lost 800$ yesterday in 2 and a half hours, I did absolutely nothing wrong and played pretty damn close to perfect poker. 5 years ago this would have upset me to no end and I would have probably tilted off another buy in or two. Instead I went home and spent quality time with the wife and kids. To me this is the self realization you speak of, at least it for me.
Poker makes me a better person when I play the right way and make the correct decisions. On the contrary when I win and know that I didn't play well I do not pat myself on the back for it. I hate it when I miss even one street of value, and that carries over to real life. I try to get the most out of life in all situations.
I have poker to thank for that. It doesn't come fast or easy, but if you work on it you will get there.

Quite common I believe. I like to wind down after the session (win or loose) to reset my emotional and mental state and not transfer it over to the family and ppl around me. Google search "poker session cool down".

Great quote. Yeah, poker is one of the greatest sports. But how was your self-realization journey? What did you do in order to get where you are now?

Resurrecting an old threat to vent some frustration. It's 26 months since I started this thread and I'm still struggling with the same things.

I had an excruciatingly busy personal life the first half of this year and only had 3 chances to play casino poker. I had a Vegas vacation planned for this week that I'm heading home from. I spent most of the year reading, studying and preparing as much as it's possible for a busy person with limited access to the tables to do. I had never felt more ready to play my A game than at the beginning of this week.

I did everything except prepare myself for the possibility that I may be card dead for essentially the entire week. And that's what happened. And it made me sick. I even got mad at the table once and slammed down my chips and my cards and uttered profanities.

I'm going to take a break from live poker for awhile, but when I do come back (and I *will* come back), I hope I remember to prepare myself for the possibility that I could play well and still lose.

Just about every time I study up or read a new book, I have a terrible losing session after. I think it's because I get a picture of how things are going to go in my mind, and when reality doesn't match up with that picture, part of me short circuits.

You can't get that upset over something you can't control man, calm down. When I'm that card dead, I make a mental note that there's nothing I can do and to not a spazz out out of frustration. Just be careful and look for a decent opportunity. But most of all, take a moment to laugh about it. Its a game. A game I take seriously that supplements my income but card dead is something that will happen from time to time. Making bad tilting decisions- you do have control over that.

On top of this, I think it's important to give yourself credit for being patient when you're card dead. I was card dead as hell the other day (like, literally J4 was one of the best hands I got for an hour), and I was thrilled at myself, because I just sat there folding and waiting for my spot. It's important to put more value on how well you play, rather than how positive or negative the money figure is.

Excellent point. I do that as well. Like uh uh, not going to get a tilt raise from me. Accept the terms of the game and it makes things easier.

You have a choice.

Smile and laugh at your losing sessions and when your losing at the table even. People will want to play with you if you do this. It also improves your health being happy. just start smiling.

or just be miserable. up to you really.

This is not something to be ignored.

It's important to look into: how the mind acting automatically studying material then thinks/day dreams about how this new information is going to lead to results.

But, of course, in actuality this may not happen.

In the occurrence of results not going in your favour there is an inevitable struggle.

This is due to the difference in actuality and the unconscious expectation built in the mind. What this shows is that the mind acting automatically creates this expectation, "I deserve to win". And it's this impression in the mind, which it gets attached to, that gets hurt.

So one has to question why would you want to continually operate with an automatic habitual mind?

Chiggs, have you read much J Krishnamurti by any chance?

Some good insight from Howard Beale in this thread.

OP, have you meditated or studied Buddhism? A central tenet is that attachment is the source of all suffering. And attachment can take two forms: craving and aversion. Craving in poker = I want to win with my good starting hands like KK, or I want my strong draws (like nut flush draw + nut low draw with backup in Omaha) to get there. Aversion in poker = I don't want to suffer a bad beat when I finally flop a made hand, or I don't want to be card dead for a week when I fly to Vegas after studying poker for a year. We get attached to the idea of these things happening or not happening, and when poker reality doesn't conform to our desire, we suffer not just the monetary loss but intense disappointment, frustration, anger, loathing, depression, etc.

How do we rise above this? That is the challenge of a lifetime; meditation offers one path.

Meditation can take many forms, but one approach is simply to return your focus again and again to your own breathing. At the poker table, I sometimes say to myself between hands: "Sit up straight, take a deep breath, and make good decisions on every street." (This is a modification of something that Tommy Angelo suggested somewhere.) Those are three things I can attempt to control. I cannot control what cards I get or what community cards come; and although I can try to influence my opponents' actions through my betting choices, ultimately I can't control what they do.

Another way to reset your mind to a calm, attachment-free state while playing is to get up every hour or two, leave the casino, and walk around the block. Take deep breaths, get the heart pumping a little—more oxygen to the brain. Shake off whatever frustrations and annoyances may have accumulated. Remind yourself to focus on sitting up straight and making good decisions on every street.

In Zen and the Art of Poker, Larry Phillips wrote that nobody goes to a casino to fold for hours on end. But what if you consciously chose to do exactly like that? As you're entering the casino, think to yourself, "I'm going to play for X hours, and I'm going to fold every single hand that's dealt to me." And then, before you look at your starting cards, think, "I'm going to fold this hand." Of course, you're not actually going to do that—when you get AK or JJ in early position, you're going to raise. But folding becomes your expectation, so now when you're card dead, you won't suffer (or maybe not as much). And you won't be tempted to play marginal hands in suboptimal spots. You'll just calmly fold, knowing that you're doing the right thing and that this is actually winning poker.

Admittedly, these things are hard to do. I struggle with attachment in poker as much as you or anyone else. I play live more often than you do (about one and half times a week, on average), so perhaps I have less invested psychologically in any individual session. And I try to focus on my hourly win rate for the year as one of the most important metrics of my success (not playing all night is another). But I still hate to have losing sessions or even protracted downswings within winning or breakeven sessions. And I'm susceptible to fatigue, frustration, and tilt—and the resultant deterioration in my play.

When it comes to emotional control and rising above attachment, just keep working on it; the effort is what counts.

Some great posts

If I could add one thing that may help

Losing is losing. It's always going to feel like ****
Whether it's poker or business or anything

You can't have the highs of winning without the lows of losing

It's like getting ko'd in boxing
It's always going to leave a dent, and frankly I don't
think there's much you can do about it, other then
getting used to it a bit

I think if anything, sort of 'absorbing it' and feeling it
fully is the best way of dealing with it