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Old 08-20-2020, 01:01 AM   #26
Mason Malmuth
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Re: How do you manage tilt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeeeroyLenkins View Post
Masters and Doctorate in Clinical Psychology here and in practice with nearly a decade in the field. Also have read both of Tendler's books.

Have to respectfully disagree.

A lot of psychology concepts, coping strategies, and interventions hinge on changing OUR individual perception or response to a situation.

You can give a person all the poker knowledge in the world but then we ask: Do they actually understand how to apply it. Do they understand how to put their perception aside and apply it in the best way?

I believe, and I can't speak for Tendler, that the application of the inchworm concept is valid for poker because most players aren't going to be able to take the knowledge (from strategy, math, edge standpoints) and apply it both "quickly and consistently accurately." They also are going to naturally seek markers of improvement or milestones to see where their learning is taking them. It's of course a matter of opinion whether players should seek those in a game like poker. I would at least argue markers of improvement (from a measurable perspective) are useful as long as we don't slip into results oriented thinking beyond seeing it as a yardstick for how well or poorly we're understanding/applying a poker concept.

Not to mention the mental game aspect, which IMO as both a poker player and given my career, is perhaps more crucial than the poker knowledge alone. You can give anyone one of your well written solid poker books, but can they apply it or will they? How do they respond in high pressure spots? Even if the "know" what to do theoretically, do they do it when it matters? Do they know how they respond enough when the pressure is on the ensure they do what they know is correct from knowledge and not from emotion?

In any event, inchworm is useful because it gives poker players a way to progress their understanding AND application of poker knowledge over time. No one sits down and immediately executes proper range analysis most hands. No one sits down after studying whatever concept they just learned in poker and execute it correctly in every situation. There's a lot to learn about poker and often times we get in the way of ourselves when applying what we learn.

Even more importantly inchworm concepts allow players to SEE what is and isn't changing over time which can be both a reality check to see what needs work and a motivator to see what they've mastered at a level of unconscious competence.

Overall I think inchworm is a motivational mechanism especially for people newer to the game or stuck not improving in the game.

On another note, inchworm isn't really related to tilt and tilt management.
Not to sound like a cliche therapist...but often what is the biggest cause of loss of emotional regulation in a situation (i.e. when tilt happens) isn't what's going on...it's how we react. And honestly we shouldn't take it personally if we tilt or donkey rage or whatever...we're wired to react to situations. But we can work to change it. Hell I even still experience some tilt , some I was able to see myself and address. But we all have blind spots and resources like Tommy Angelo books/sites, Jared Tendler books, Zen and The Art of Poker book, and sometimes just someone in my life pointing out something seemingly small like: "gee it seems you type a little more furiously sometimes while playing poker online but not other times" can uncover what we can't see ourselves.


I do 100% agree there's probably some really bad mental game coaches out there because they lack any form of training in psychological theory and concepts.

And in Tendler's defense I believe I read he was trained in sports psychology not clinical or social psychology. Also to be fair, "inchworm" concepts stem more from cognitive approaches to learning, not mental game or mental regulation (i.e. tilt control). But since learning knowledge to apply in poker is still learning, it does indeed have a function in poker learning.

His books do a great job of aligning how our mind often gets in the way of our performance; even with all the poker knowledge in the world, it doesn't mean we can quickly master and execute it sufficiently. Until we get ourselves prepared to do it.

Finally as it relates to "psychology" of/in poker I find that many poker books have a few pages or a chapter on it applied mostly to understanding it through the lenses of how to outplay/read/understand opponents.

Found this a fascinating thread and wanted to chime in. Interesting stuff, maybe I should look into writing a book.
I think most everything you say here is wrong and I don't feel like writing out the answers again. But, since you like reading threads, may I suggest this one:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2.../#post52620391

It covers some of the topics that you bring up.

Also, if you were to read my book, Real Poker Psychology, you would see that I say you must get some experience to become a good poker player. But you don't need anywhere close to the 10,000 hours that Cardner claimed were necessary.

Mason
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Old 08-20-2020, 01:40 AM   #27
Elrazor
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Re: How do you manage tilt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I think most everything you say here is wrong and I don't feel like writing out the answers again. But, since you like reading threads, may I suggest this one:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2.../#post52620391
This is the best thread/discussion on the topic here or anywhere else. Shame the discussion petered out.
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Old 08-21-2020, 12:14 AM   #28
Mason Malmuth
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Re: How do you manage tilt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeeeroyLenkins View Post
Masters and Doctorate in Clinical Psychology here and in practice with nearly a decade in the field. Also have read both of Tendler's books.

Have to respectfully disagree.
Hi Jeeeroy:

I got some time now and will try to go through your post. So, let's see how I do.

Quote:
A lot of psychology concepts, coping strategies, and interventions hinge on changing OUR individual perception or response to a situation.
Okay.

Quote:
You can give a person all the poker knowledge in the world but then we ask: Do they actually understand how to apply it. Do they understand how to put their perception aside and apply it in the best way?
Again, there's much discussion in my book Real Poker Psychology. The quick answer is that you need experience playing, but no where near the amount of experience that poker mental coach Cardner claimed you needed.

Quote:
I believe, and I can't speak for Tendler, that the application of the inchworm concept is valid for poker because most players aren't going to be able to take the knowledge (from strategy, math, edge standpoints) and apply it both "quickly and consistently accurately."
The problem here is that poker, being a game mainly, of knowledge is not like an athletic sport where execution is highly important. This means that once you have some understanding of poker, adding new concepts, correcting flawed ones, and learning to balance concepts better can result in rapid improvement. It's not like a tennis player hitting hours of backhands everyday, as I once did, in an effort to slowly improve over time.

Quote:
They also are going to naturally seek markers of improvement or milestones to see where their learning is taking them.
Except that this can't happen in poker. If you were a weight lifter, being able to lift a certain weight which you currently can't do might make some sense. But in a game like poker with a large short term luck factor, there will never be anything like this to measure.

Quote:
It's of course a matter of opinion whether players should seek those in a game like poker. I would at least argue markers of improvement (from a measurable perspective) are useful as long as we don't slip into results oriented thinking beyond seeing it as a yardstick for how well or poorly we're understanding/applying a poker concept.
See my answer above.

Quote:
Not to mention the mental game aspect, which IMO as both a poker player and given my career, is perhaps more crucial than the poker knowledge alone. You can give anyone one of your well written solid poker books, but can they apply it or will they? How do they respond in high pressure spots? Even if the "know" what to do theoretically, do they do it when it matters? Do they know how they respond enough when the pressure is on the ensure they do what they know is correct from knowledge and not from emotion?
The problem here is that poker has become more and more like blackjack. I suggest you read this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...6&postcount=28

Quote:
In any event, inchworm is useful because it gives poker players a way to progress their understanding AND application of poker knowledge over time.
Again, poker is not like an athletic sport and doesn't work like this.

Quote:
No one sits down and immediately executes proper range analysis most hands. No one sits down after studying whatever concept they just learned in poker and execute it correctly in every situation. There's a lot to learn about poker and often times we get in the way of ourselves when applying what we learn.
And no one said that any of this happens.

Quote:
Even more importantly inchworm concepts allow players to SEE what is and isn't changing over time which can be both a reality check to see what needs work and a motivator to see what they've mastered at a level of unconscious competence.
You need to read this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=109

and this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=113

you'll now see that unconcious competence is only referring to the basics, and this comes from Tendler himself. That's a lot different from his book where he states "Unconscious Competence is the Holy Grail of learning, and by far the most important concept in this book."

Quote:
Overall I think inchworm is a motivational mechanism especially for people newer to the game or stuck not improving in the game.
I'll concede this. Perhaps you're right for someone brand new who knows little. But it can't be right for most people reading this thrtead.

Quote:
On another note, inchworm isn't really related to tilt and tilt management.
Not to sound like a cliche therapist...but often what is the biggest cause of loss of emotional regulation in a situation (i.e. when tilt happens) isn't what's going on...it's how we react. And honestly we shouldn't take it personally if we tilt or donkey rage or whatever...we're wired to react to situations. But we can work to change it. Hell I even still experience some tilt , some I was able to see myself and address.
You need to read the chapter in my book titled "A Mathematical Model of “Tilt” — Cause and Cure."

Quote:
But we all have blind spots and resources like Tommy Angelo books/sites, Jared Tendler books, Zen and The Art of Poker book, and sometimes just someone in my life pointing out something seemingly small like: "gee it seems you type a little more furiously sometimes while playing poker online but not other times" can uncover what we can't see ourselves.
I'm not even sure what this means and how it's related to poker. But if you say so, fine.

Quote:
I do 100% agree there's probably some really bad mental game coaches out there because they lack any form of training in psychological theory and concepts.
I find the stuff incredibly bad.

Quote:
And in Tendler's defense I believe I read he was trained in sports psychology not clinical or social psychology.
This brings us back to the same point. Sports require things like speed, timing, and coordination, which come under the heading of execution. Are things like speed, timing, and coordination important in poker.

Quote:
Also to be fair, "inchworm" concepts stem more from cognitive approaches to learning, not mental game or mental regulation (i.e. tilt control). But since learning knowledge to apply in poker is still learning, it does indeed have a function in poker learning.
I think inchworm has been addressed enough.

Quote:
His books do a great job of aligning how our mind often gets in the way of our performance; even with all the poker knowledge in the world, it doesn't mean we can quickly master and execute it sufficiently. Until we get ourselves prepared to do it.
To me, and I was a victim of this at first, the worse part of Tendler's books is that if you haven't thought this stuff through, and don't already have a good understanding of poker, his book, and I only read the first one, sure sounds good. Here's a review of it:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...8&postcount=39

Quote:
Finally as it relates to "psychology" of/in poker I find that many poker books have a few pages or a chapter on it applied mostly to understanding it through the lenses of how to outplay/read/understand opponents.
Okay.

Quote:
Found this a fascinating thread and wanted to chime in. Interesting stuff, maybe I should look into writing a book.
Perhaps you should and perhaps we would even be interested in publishing it. But before either one of these things happen, I would strongly suggest that you understand the things I'm saying and linking to. There has been much discussion of this stuff on these forums and, in my opinion, people like Tendler have not done well in defending their positions.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 08-23-2020, 11:47 PM   #29
valiantcalls
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Re: How do you manage tilt?

I manage tilt by not putting myself in positions in which I will tilt. These situations are generally 1) Making a lot of money early on in a session, playing more and then losing most of it, 2) Playing for long sessions when tired from being card dead, 3) Taking too many bad beats. The most important thing to long term winning poker is a stable mind, do your best to keep it that way.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:01 PM   #30
JeeeroyLenkins
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Re: How do you manage tilt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Jeeeroy:

I got some time now and will try to go through your post. So, let's see how I do.



Okay.



Again, there's much discussion in my book Real Poker Psychology. The quick answer is that you need experience playing, but no where near the amount of experience that poker mental coach Cardner claimed you needed.



The problem here is that poker, being a game mainly, of knowledge is not like an athletic sport where execution is highly important. This means that once you have some understanding of poker, adding new concepts, correcting flawed ones, and learning to balance concepts better can result in rapid improvement. It's not like a tennis player hitting hours of backhands everyday, as I once did, in an effort to slowly improve over time.



Except that this can't happen in poker. If you were a weight lifter, being able to lift a certain weight which you currently can't do might make some sense. But in a game like poker with a large short term luck factor, there will never be anything like this to measure.



See my answer above.



The problem here is that poker has become more and more like blackjack. I suggest you read this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...6&postcount=28



Again, poker is not like an athletic sport and doesn't work like this.



And no one said that any of this happens.



You need to read this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=109

and this post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=113

you'll now see that unconcious competence is only referring to the basics, and this comes from Tendler himself. That's a lot different from his book where he states "Unconscious Competence is the Holy Grail of learning, and by far the most important concept in this book."



I'll concede this. Perhaps you're right for someone brand new who knows little. But it can't be right for most people reading this thrtead.



You need to read the chapter in my book titled "A Mathematical Model of “Tilt” — Cause and Cure."



I'm not even sure what this means and how it's related to poker. But if you say so, fine.



I find the stuff incredibly bad.



This brings us back to the same point. Sports require things like speed, timing, and coordination, which come under the heading of execution. Are things like speed, timing, and coordination important in poker.



I think inchworm has been addressed enough.



To me, and I was a victim of this at first, the worse part of Tendler's books is that if you haven't thought this stuff through, and don't already have a good understanding of poker, his book, and I only read the first one, sure sounds good. Here's a review of it:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...8&postcount=39



Okay.



Perhaps you should and perhaps we would even be interested in publishing it. But before either one of these things happen, I would strongly suggest that you understand the things I'm saying and linking to. There has been much discussion of this stuff on these forums and, in my opinion, people like Tendler have not done well in defending their positions.

Best wishes,
Mason
Thanks Mason I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post and my thoughts on this topic from a professional standpoint.

I hadn't heard of Cardner, I have heard of the 10,000 hours theory. I agree it doesn't apply to poker, or really many activities IMO. Some things take longer than others to get good at of course, but even in the Malcom Gladwell days of "10,000 hours" theory, I could never get behind 10,000 hours for most things. Even at the highest levels of my field, we may get thousands of hours of clinical training but no one suggests 10,000 therapy sessions or face to face hours with patients before one can graduate with a masters or doctorate in the field.

But outside of degree requirements or job requirements a set number of hours to me is irrelevant for learning something. And some players are going to pick up poker and the skillsets faster than others anyways. And we know many people "improve" with practice of whatever they're learning as long as they're willing to learn from errors, mistakes, and new knowledge being presented.


And you're spot on, most of my response is in regards to newer players and non-pros. I would imagine, and hope, a poker or blackjack professional has gotten their mental game ducks in a row. Just as I'd expect elite athletes to be able to focus 100% on execution of the skills and not let their mind wander, their focus weaken, or their thoughts intrude.

Interesting you mention newer players reading something and maybe not fully understanding it. Or maybe misapplying it. I do wonder if that applies to other concepts. Like new players diving into poker knowledge that's too advanced without first stopping to review and master the foundational knowledge of the game.

It sounds like from your deep experience in poker you're saying newer players may incorrectly apply mental game concepts from other areas that don't take into consideration the unique nature of poker (with it's luck factor, variance, etc). Which I can see now makes a lot of sense.

I can also see how Blackjack and Poker have more in common now, especially when considering increased focus on mathematical theory and application of it.


You've got to be kidding me though that someone actually said "visualize a 2 on the river?" That's pretty atrocious and horrible advice. I can understand the power of "visualization" in sports; after all as a tennis player I imagine you got better through repetition and also follow through of your swings. Maybe you even visualized where you were aiming. So visualizing can be a great tool in physical sports ("visualize yourself hitting the baseball out of the park, " visualize the tennis racket directed towards the corner you want the ball to go.").

But with poker, I agree, what the heck does visualizing cards do for a player? Except maybe crush them when they start believing that. I wasn't aware so many "mental coaches" were slinging such bizarre advice. Positivity and cognitive focus is one thing; visualizing certain cards is just wishful thinking. At best it leads to them misreading boards, at worst is deludes them into making incorrect plays. I get what you mean. I could wish for the flush to come on the river all I want but that doesn't mean it comes or my wishing had any impact on the outcome of what card comes.

I read the forum links you posted as well, the one on your views on these mental game books was eye opening to say the least. It reminded me of the saying "you don't know what you don't know." So if a player makes errors that they don't realize are errors in poker; how would they know to change the error. And in terms of tilt are they tilting because they lost or because they think they played correctly? A player with knowledge would know why they lost the hand right? And thus not tilt because they understood what went wrong (identifying what they could have done vs a bad beat).

I'll certainly check out some of your works and books. In terms of writing poker books from psychology perspectives I often wonder what that best approach needs to be. It's clear now that poker players require a different approach then athletes due to nature of the game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by valiantcalls View Post
I manage tilt by not putting myself in positions in which I will tilt. These situations are generally 1) Making a lot of money early on in a session, playing more and then losing most of it, 2) Playing for long sessions when tired from being card dead, 3) Taking too many bad beats. The most important thing to long term winning poker is a stable mind, do your best to keep it that way.

While I agree that we need to mentally aware and focused; I think perhaps you might be hindering yourself poker wise if you avoid the positions you used as examples. It sounds like you identified what causes tilt but then avoid it. But also these are all examples of things we must accept in poker (going up in profit then back down, card dead, bad beats) and frankly if you don't come to terms with those things, will you ever actually beat tilt? And are you leaving a lot of long term profit on the table by just avoiding situations that are part of the game? I agree we should recognize what tilts us and take breaks. But also recognize ways to eliminate those things tilting us since they're part of the game.
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Old 09-01-2020, 12:28 AM   #31
Mason Malmuth
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Re: How do you manage tilt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeeeroyLenkins View Post
Thanks Mason I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post and my thoughts on this topic from a professional standpoint.
Hi Jeeeroy:

Well, let me do the same again and go through this post and see how we're doing.

Quote:
I hadn't heard of Cardner, I have heard of the 10,000 hours theory. I agree it doesn't apply to poker, or really many activities IMO. Some things take longer than others to get good at of course, but even in the Malcom Gladwell days of "10,000 hours" theory, I could never get behind 10,000 hours for most things. Even at the highest levels of my field, we may get thousands of hours of clinical training but no one suggests 10,000 therapy sessions or face to face hours with patients before one can graduate with a masters or doctorate in the field.
Cardner is the co-author of three books on this subject. I've only read the first one but on the first two books her co-author was Jonathan Little.

As for 10,000 hours, I've played tennis since I was a kid and believe that to become a top player, 10,000 hours is not a bad estimate. But in my book Real Poker Psychology I say on page 67:

Again, you don’t need to work on timing, speed, and coordination, and you don’t have to gain a knowledge of advanced mathematics to play well. So a lot less than 10,000 hours should do the trick, and I do mean a lot less.

So I think we're in agreement here

Quote:
But outside of degree requirements or job requirements a set number of hours to me is irrelevant for learning something. And some players are going to pick up poker and the skillsets faster than others anyways. And we know many people "improve" with practice of whatever they're learning as long as they're willing to learn from errors, mistakes, and new knowledge being presented.
This sounds fine to me.

Quote:
And you're spot on, most of my response is in regards to newer players and non-pros. I would imagine, and hope, a poker or blackjack professional has gotten their mental game ducks in a row. Just as I'd expect elite athletes to be able to focus 100% on execution of the skills and not let their mind wander, their focus weaken, or their thoughts intrude.
Okay.

Quote:
Interesting you mention newer players reading something and maybe not fully understanding it. Or maybe misapplying it. I do wonder if that applies to other concepts. Like new players diving into poker knowledge that's too advanced without first stopping to review and master the foundational knowledge of the game.
This goes back to Tendler's "unconcious competence." We essentially got him to to admit that it only really applies to, as you state, "foundational knowledge of the game" and I think that's right. It should be learned first and then the new poker student should move on from there.

Quote:
It sounds like from your deep experience in poker you're saying newer players may incorrectly apply mental game concepts from other areas that don't take into consideration the unique nature of poker (with it's luck factor, variance, etc). Which I can see now makes a lot of sense.
I think this is exactly right. Mental game concepts that usually come from the sports world and are designed to help with execution won't help much in a game like poker which is basically a knowledge game where speed, timing, and coordination are not important. But for an expert who is looking for every edge, they may have a little value.

Quote:
I can also see how Blackjack and Poker have more in common now, especially when considering increased focus on mathematical theory and application of it.
This is actually an interesting point. Because of game theory and a few other things, poker, over the years, has become more and more like blackjack.

Quote:
You've got to be kidding me though that someone actually said "visualize a 2 on the river?" That's pretty atrocious and horrible advice. I can understand the power of "visualization" in sports; after all as a tennis player I imagine you got better through repetition and also follow through of your swings. Maybe you even visualized where you were aiming. So visualizing can be a great tool in physical sports ("visualize yourself hitting the baseball out of the park, " visualize the tennis racket directed towards the corner you want the ball to go.").
I think this is absolutely correct and this was another example of how some of these sports psychology ideas, which are designed to help execution, have come into poker. They often sound good, though this one doesn't, but are fairly worthless for the vast majority of players.

Quote:
But with poker, I agree, what the heck does visualizing cards do for a player? Except maybe crush them when they start believing that. I wasn't aware so many "mental coaches" were slinging such bizarre advice.
This is a very important idea. I'm not against the psychology of poker. In fact, I wrote a whole book on this topic. But what I've written is very different from what many of these poker mental coaches advocate.

Quote:
Positivity and cognitive focus is one thing; visualizing certain cards is just wishful thinking. At best it leads to them misreading boards, at worst is deludes them into making incorrect plays. I get what you mean. I could wish for the flush to come on the river all I want but that doesn't mean it comes or my wishing had any impact on the outcome of what card comes.
And what you're saying here, which is also correct, is that much of this poker mental coaching that's out there can be detrimental for many players if they get trapped into it and neglect to work on their games in the proper way.

Quote:
I read the forum links you posted as well, the one on your views on these mental game books was eye opening to say the least. It reminded me of the saying "you don't know what you don't know." So if a player makes errors that they don't realize are errors in poker; how would they know to change the error.
This was something that was really emphasized in the Cardner book. I remember one passage where it said something like you have just made a couple of mistakes and are now beginning to feel a little tilty. But again, how would they know?

Quote:
And in terms of tilt are they tilting because they lost or because they think they played correctly? A player with knowledge would know why they lost the hand right? And thus not tilt because they understood what went wrong (identifying what they could have done vs a bad beat).
I think this is exactly right. In my book I call these spots "logic disconnects" where your brain gets hung up on trying to solve a problem that it doesn't have the knowledge to solve. But if the knowledge is there, tilt won't occur.

Quote:
I'll certainly check out some of your works and books. In terms of writing poker books from psychology perspectives I often wonder what that best approach needs to be. It's clear now that poker players require a different approach then athletes due to nature of the game.
I agree completely.

Quote:
While I agree that we need to mentally aware and focused; I think perhaps you might be hindering yourself poker wise if you avoid the positions you used as examples. It sounds like you identified what causes tilt but then avoid it. But also these are all examples of things we must accept in poker (going up in profit then back down, card dead, bad beats) and frankly if you don't come to terms with those things, will you ever actually beat tilt? And are you leaving a lot of long term profit on the table by just avoiding situations that are part of the game? I agree we should recognize what tilts us and take breaks. But also recognize ways to eliminate those things tilting us since they're part of the game.
There's a lot more to poker than just poker strategy. In Real Poker Psychology I use the phrase all things poker to capture this. A misunderstanding of variance and how it actually works and the fact that something, like poker, which is based on probability theory, can often be counter-intuitive for many players are things that should be addressed in poker mental coaching. But as far as I can tell, none of these mental coaches even know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, thanks for a great post.

Best wishes,
Mason
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