Sorry I didn't answer Bob, got distracted. FWIW I played Badugi with Breich and some of his buddies and cleaned them out LOL. I must have said the word Badugi about 3 dozen times because it sounds so funny when you say it out loud.

I'll answer your questions ASAP. And I do appreciate all your help. If we're ever in the same geographical vicinity you won't have to pay for your own drinks.

OK bob, FWIW I just responded to a bunch of threads in the Small-Stakes PLO forum. And none of them were responding just to respond (I really don't like doing that) - in all of the threads I disagreed with the advice the poster was getting and explained why.

To your question about other card games, I've *been* in those situations. Back when I used to play on Merge a lot, I used to putz around on the seven-card-stud and FLO8 tables.

When I played 7-card-stud, I usually played very tight. When my first 3 cards did not connect in any way, shape or form I usually got out of the hand quickly. If they *did* connect, I would usually try to see 1 or 2 more streets cheaply to see what develops, paying attention to the "dead cards" that other players folded (nothing is worse than chasing a draw having forgotten that other villains folded all of your outs!). If I got to a point where I thought I'd made the best hand I shoveled money into the pot.

I did think stud was fun. I never reviewed my hands or studied the odds/strategy etc. to compare how I was playing to what was "accepted as what the good players do", but I certainly don't think I played badly.

I was a horrible O8 player. I was essentially a station. I grossly underestimated how worthless the 5th-nut-low or 7th-nut-high hands were, got chopped, quartered etc. all the time. I don't think I actually *had* a coherent strategy - I think I just played by the seat of my pants and lost a lot of money before I actually picked up a book and studied it, then later decided I didn't like it and gave it up.

The first time I played badugi, the very first hand I got dealt was a234r. I kid you not. Breich noticed that I was uncomfortable playing a game I'd never played before and said, "You can just fold this round if you want", but when I picked up my cards, my eyes got big and I said, "Dude, I RAISE!" and I stood pat all 3 betting rounds and scooped a big pot! The expressions and reactions of everyone else at the table when I tabled my hand were PRICELESS!

When I got dealt a crap hand like 4 high cards or 3 cards of the same suit I just folded pre. Really, my mentality was "make a good hand and show it down", and if I had a GREAT hand, make everyone pay and if someone made a better one, so be it. In a game like badugi where you can't see any of your opponents' cards, it's hard to know where you stand. It's different than hold'em where if you have 88 and the board is AJ85r you can be absolutely sure you're either way ahead or you're very unlucky. Even if you have AQ or even AT on that board you can feel reasonably certain you're in the lead.

So, I really don't think my thought process was "that different" than the one you described - I just didn't have pokerstove or a book available for me to learn and crunch odds, I just kind of had to do it by feel.

Exactly the point I was hoping you'd come to with the exercise I presented.

Now, how does that translate to holdem? I would think that you have quite decent feel for the game by now. You've read the books and you know the odds. So when it comes time to construct your strategy, I think you're ready to start to visualize your ev as a share of the pot in real time. You're probably doing this already subconsciously, but in order to take your game to the next level you must actively and consciously think about your ev as a share in the pot.

This may or may not be the response you're looking for, but there are definitely times when my "feel" in hold'em is flat out WRONG. The best example of that is the thread I started regarding my mental block with 99 and TT. Those two hands "felt" like crap hands that were just going to get me in trouble postflop. It wasn't until I sat down to do the math and calculated how often those hands actually flop an overpair, and also did several stove simulations against 3, 4, 5 limpers, or limpers and a TAG etc. that I realized how strong they actually are. I'm no longer afraid to play those two hands, even though I had a session where I lost with them 6 times (mostly suckouts).

I question whether or not actually play "by feel" when I play SSHE. It seems to me that I play more by study than by feel. I know if I have AQo preflop I'm USUALLY ahead of everyone (or flipping against a PP) and when I'm not it's just bad luck. I know when I flop top pair with a good kicker i'm usually ahead. I know when a 3rd club hits the board that it USUALLY doesn't make a flush for anyone.

I just shovel chips into the pot in spots where I'm USUALLY ahead, and either get out when it's blatantly obvious that I'm beat or cheaply show down a second-best hand and say a friendly "nice hand" to the winner.

Ok. How profitable do you THINK TT is from utg 9 handed?

bloggy-style post 02/02/2018

played 3/6LHE at The Grand Casino in Shawnee OK last night and had a good time. Nice people at the table, and as an aside, I really enjoy sitting at a table where everyone's friendly, even though they're clearly just trying to take all of my chips - they know I'm trying to take all of theirs too . But when one wins a big pot over another, there's no bitterness or animosity, it's all in good fun. The lady to my immediate right was a particularly nice person.

Notable hands on the night:

I raise 99 UTG, get 2 coldcallers and the BB, flop a set on a two-toned board and it holds up.

4 limpers, I'm on the BTN with QQ and raise, flop is Kxx, I bet when checked to and get 3 callers, turn is a blank, I bet when checked to and get 2 callers, river is another blank, I bet and get 1 caller who had JJ.

I'm in the BB. UTG straddles. 2 coldcallers, SB folds, I call with KQo, straddler checks. Flop comes K74r. I check intending to checkraise. Straddler bets, one caller, I raise, they both call. Turn and river were both blanks and both streets went I bet straddler calls. Straddler flipped over AKo.

The nice lady to my right got involved in a huge pot where her second-nut flush ran into the nut flush. A couple orbits later there were 4 limpers including the lady to my right and I called on on the BTN with QT of clubs (a mental error, I usually raise that there). The flop included the K and 4 of clubs - YES! second-nut flush draw. Checks around to me and of course I bet. 3 callers. Turn is a blank, checks around to me, and of course I bet again. They all call. I think to myself, "a club on the river would be really really nice, especially if it's the ace!". It was a club, but not the ace. Checks to the lady to my right who bets into me. I raise. The other 2 villains fold, and she reraises! "OHHHH NOOOO YOU'VE GOT THE ACE!" I say and call, and sure enough, she has it . I make a joke about poker karma rewarding here and tell her nice hand!

Later I'm in the big blind with 63o. 4 limpers, lady to my right completes in the SB and I check my option. Flop comes K25 with 2 clubs. Lady and I check, the first limper bets, the lady and I are the only callers. I think to myself, "a 4 on the turn would be nice!" It was the 4 - OF CLUBS!!!!! The lady to my right donked right out. I had to stop and think. The lady had shown that she was fully capable of betting a scare card. I know she COULD have a flush, and the LIMPER could have a flush, but flushes are very hard to make in this game - just because it happened a few hands ago doesn't mean it's happening now. I play the reads and percentages, decide I probably have the best hand, and raise. The lady says, "What????? What are you raising for????" jokingly. The limper SLAMS 12 chips on the table like he's really annoyed (he probably has 1 club) and the lady calls. The river bricks, lady checks, I bet, limper calls, lady folds and shows a pure bluff. I showed my straight and the limper mucked his hand.

Ended the night up about $75 and probably could have done better than that. I still suffer from boredom tilt when I'm card dead - that cost me some money. I also have a tendency to go on autopilot - if I flop top pair I just bet, bet, bet without even thinking - granted that's usually correct, but it's NOT correct to do it without thinking about it.

I don't really think like this. I'm UTG with TT I just think, "I've studied this hand and know it's profitable to open it here, so I'm going to open it", and then just try to play smart from there based on the board and the action.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1.../#post53436458

I got really deep into the ev discussion and decided to put it in the theory forum instead.

Hey Bob, you might find it ironic that I've been responding to other people's threads in the Live Low-Stakes NL forum

A couple times I've gone to the casino and the LHE game hasn't been running, and not wanting to completely waste a trip I've said "Bleep it" and played NLHE. I buy in as short as possible and then if I'm lucky enough to double or triple up I use the rest of the session as opportunities to practice anaesthetizing myself to the experience of betting a large number of big blinds on one hand.

I've got a long way to go if I ever to decide to transition back - be interesting to see what develops over the rest of the year.

One month from today I'll be on another poker cruise!

Thought I'd post a quick update in case anyone is still following this thread.



I've had an insanely busy personal and work life this year. Poker hasn't just taken a back seat, it's been locked in the trunk.



With that said, I did get to take another Card Player Cruises cruise last week. It was wonderful. I could talk about it all day. Here's a particular story that I posted on another subforum:



"Hello forumites.



Anyone ever dabbled in FLO8?



I dabbled in it a few years ago, lost a lot of money because I didn't know what I was doing, and never went back.



Last week I was on a poker cruise (and for the record, I could talk about cruising, ESPECIALLY poker cruising, all day, so if you have any questions, ask away) and there were 9 ladies who would consistently sprint down to the poker room the second the dinner hour was over, GLUE their butts to the seats at the 3/6LHE and NOT MOVE! I kid you not, one night I was the 10th person to go down, I put my name on the waitlist, left to take my mom to the ice skating show, and when I came back I was STILL first on the list!



Anyway, one particular night the only table in the room that had an open seat was the 4/8 FLO8 table and I thought, "Bleep it, I'm on vacation" and sat.



I could not believe the horrible, devastating mistakes everyone was making. I mean LHE players know to look for tables where 4 to 6 people are seeing every flop because it's like people are walking by and just tossing extra chips into the pot, but at this particular FLO8 table it was even WORSE! Many hands were going 4 to 6 to the flop even if there was a raise, and even AFTER the flop people were chasing a draw to the third-nut low or tenth-nut high in a huge pot - I couldn't BELIEVE what people were showing down!



To make a long story short, I ended the week down about $140. Was it bad luck or bad skill? I'm sure it was a combination of the two - there were several hands that I clearly played wrong and lost, but there were also a couple hands I clearly played wrong and WON, so... y'all get the idea. I basically just always adopted a mindset of "always think scoop", "bloat the pot when I have a clear equity advantage", and "be aware of exceptions to the always think scoop rule" - I mean when there are 6 people in the pot, you have A2 and there's a low on the board there's a pretty good chance that even if you only win half the pot you still triple your money or at worst only multiply it by 1.5.



The next time I go to Winstar I may walk by the FLO8 game that seems to be running a lot there and see if they're not making worse mistakes than the players at the LHE game (which is usually juicy).



Thoughts?"



Another story from the cruise that I'll share: One of the ladies I play a lot of 3/6LHE with (and was on a cruise with last year as well), finally came up to me said, "Joe - I'm sorry to have to say this, but you have a tell! It's the way you throw your chips into the pot. I wasn't going to say anything because you just play 3/6, but I've seen you playing no-limit and other bigger games and you're getting killed up there!" Another lady who also plays at our table overheard the conversation and said she totally agreed and couldn't believe the other people at the table hadn't also picked it up.



The lady seemed like she truly felt bad about telling me that - that she felt like she was insulting me or belittling me, but I was like, hey, you're HELPING me and I appreciate it.



Something you might find ironic - I decided to return the favor by helping her with some glaring holes in HER game. She doesn't raise before the flop nearly often enough (NOBODY at that table does), and doesn't play aggressively enough after the flop. I talked her through some examples and she just said, "Oh, I'm too chicken to try those moves" to a couple and, "Oh, I'm just there to play, I don't take it that seriously" to others. I just found it interesting that I was willing to listen to constructive criticism and apply it to my game, and she wasn't. Whatever that's worth.



Anyway, there was a hand where I raised KK on the button after 3 limpers and the lady called me from the BB. I bet a Qxx flop and only the lady called. When a blank hit the turn and she checked I gave her an evil look, gathered the chips in my hand and kind of flipped the chips up in the air so they landed on the table. She gave me an equally evil look and then gave me the finger (we're all friends at that table, it was all in good fun). Anyway, she check-called me on the turn and a Q river, I flipped over my KK and she flipped over KQ .



One other thing that I think is interesting - I'm so mathematical when I play that it's actually difficult for me make myself aware of when I'm about to put chips in the pot and make sure I do it the same way every time. But I appreciated the tip.



In a little over a week I have another business trip to the casino in Canada that allows a $50 buyin to their $1/$2NL game so hopefully I'll have a few more chances to get shortstack practice.



I think that's enough for now - poker is still locked in the trunk but hasn't been completely thrown out of the car - hopefully once I get through this busy patch I'll be able to start playing regularly again!

If you're serious about wanting to know whether you're addicted or not, you should answer these 20 questions:
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/...t/20-questions

You might answer yes to #2. Then again, if you show this test to your wife, that might help convince her that you're not a compulsive gambler.

Whether I or anyone else on this forum thinks you're a compulsive gambler doesn't really matter. What matters is what you think—and I guess what your wife thinks, if it becomes a sore point.

You won $1,000 playing poker last year, but you're still losing about $5/hour in $4/$8 Hold'em lifetime, is that right? You play live LHE in games that are nearly unbeatable on account of the rake (i.e., $2/$4 and $3/$6). Your analysis of hands, and the sheer volume of your posts on this site, suggests that you've spent a fair bit of time studying the game, yet you often deviate from your "A" game. In particular, you often mention boredom tilt and entitlement tilt. In addition, you seem overly focused on your poker budget and the various deals you've made with your wife to gain permission to play (often to the detriment of your game, I'd say). But you're playing for entertainment, so all that's fine, I guess.

Do you have fun playing poker? I hope you do.

Do you want to become a player who wins $6/hour? I'm not sure you do, or you would've done so by now, right?

My frank and honest assessment is that you like to analyze hands like a pro and leave money on the table like a rec.

Read The Psychology of Poker, by Alan Schoonmaker. People play poker for a lot of different reasons; you don't have to win to get something out of it.

Thanks for the response. In no particular order:

1. I answered yes to 3 of the 20 questions
2. As of today I am about a $1.20/hr lifetime loser at live LHE. I was at a lossrate of $5/hr at the end of last year and had a few good sessions at the beginning of this year (LOLsamplesize of about 300 hours lifetime).
3. I am clearly still susceptible to boredom tilt.
4. I have more fun playing LHE, PLO or PLO8 than I do playing NLHE, and I'm sure the fact that I'm a shortstacker contributes to that. Paying attention to the table during the (many) hands I'm not playing helps to stave off the boredom tilt for the first couple hours then I start getting impatient and wanting to "get in there and mix it up". I almost never play NLHE when there's any other game running in the casino at all, unfortunately lately geography has been working against me.
5. The wife is no longer an issue.
6. I have to confess that several times over my last few NLHE sessions I've straddled to $5 because "it's fun" and I think I've ended up folding my straddle every single time! So I can't honestly say I TOTALLY care about the money LOL. I don't think I do. I think the main reason I play is to have fun. I think the reason I want to continue to improve is because that's just the kind of person I am. I was the same way when I played tennis, chess and Age of Mythology.
7. I've read Shoomaker's book. Have you read Malmuth's poker psychology book?

Looking forward to continuing the conversation.

I broke my record for the fastest I've ever lost $200 at a $4/$8LHE table. Two hours. My previous record was 3.

I was building gigantic pots when I had strong hands, but I either got rivered or ran into a stronger hand. The table was beautiful - UTG raises were getting 4 coldcalls, flop raises were getting coldcalled, nobody was raising strong hands etc. I just couldn't make a hand.

The positive thing I'll say is I didn't feel the kicked-in-the-stomach devastation I've felt in the past when I've lost. My biggest disappointment was simply that I didn't get to play very long - it's an 80-minute drive each way to the casino and I only got to play 2 hours - I spent more time in the car than at the table! Obviously when you get sat at a Jesus table like there's residual disappointment when your lucky night can't coincide with the nights where getting lucky would be the most profitable.

But whatever. I lost. People lose at poker sometimes. I'll be at the table again. And again. And again.

I think hell for me consists of my wife telling me how much of my own money I am allowed to spend. Grow a sack dude, this is pathetic reading.

Does it ever stop being a LITTLE annoying when you sit down at a table that's juicier than a medium rare marbled rib eye and you can't make a best hand to save your life?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Why do so many men care about what their wife tells them to do with their money? Guy wants to spend 200 bucks on himself and he makes 6 figures?

This must be a troll no?

Well... This is the worst advice I've ever seen offered to someone who sucks at NLHE.

I got to play 4/8 O8 Friday night. I hadn't gotten to play that since the cruise. Boy is it FUN. Unfortunately I was fairly card-dead, I only won 3 pots in 5 hours, and then went on eff-it-everyone-else-is-playing-crap-hands-and-dragging-huge-lucky-pots-so-what-the-hell tilt and tilted off about a hundred bucks. The table was just insanely juicy - UTG raises getting cold-called in 6 spots, villains calling down even facing a raise cold with hands that are neither the nut high nor the nut low, only 1 or 2 villains at the table besides me who ever really raised anything (I saw one villain NOT raise AA23ss on the BUTTON after 5 limpers!!!!). The guy sitting to my left was already up about $300 when I sat down and 5 hours later was up $1000. He just couldn't miss, whatever crap hand he played would hit the flop 4 times.

Last night instead of spreading FLO8 they spread HORSE, and at the request of the players, they changed the Hold 'Em orbit to a 5-card Omaha Hi-Lo orbit. I played that game for about 6 hours. I had been previously warned that a big problem with split-pot games is that they're very very slow, and the warning was correct - I was counting about 18 hands per hour. I gotta say though, the razz, stud-hi and stud-hi-lo games are really fun. I haven't studied those games extensively so I probably didn't play optimally, but I basically just adopted a mindset of, don't play a hand where the first 3 cards aren't connected somehow, and raise when I probably have a best hand. I'm sure I made a few mistakes but overall I really had fun.

Aside #1 - I got chewed out by the table for raising the river with a nut low in a 4-way pot. 2 of the other 3 villains also happened to also have a nut low. At a table where anybody can call down to the river with anything I'm raising there all day!

Aside #2 - I thought I was going to see someone actually get thrown out of the casino for dropping F bombs. The guy who won $1000 the previous night was getting visibly and audibly frustrated, slamming his cards, slamming his chips, slamming his money on the table to rebuy and dropping f bombs. The guy to his right kept saying, there's a lady right across the table from you - you don't do that in the presence of a lady. The f-bomber told him to shut up and other guy called the floor, saying, "I told him you don't drop f-bombs in front of a lady and he told me to shut up". Turned out he'd already been warned about it TWICE that day and the floor was ready to send him home. Somehow they let him stay and the f-bomber actually changed seats. "You are being rude!" he said to the guy who called the floor! "No, YOU'RE being rude!!!!". Within 4 or 5 hands everybody was back to laughing, gambling and having fun.

I was up $120 at one point, very happy to have won back what I'd tilted away the previous night, but after a few hands where I either chased a draw that didn't come or made a second-best hand I was back down to even. As I racked up my chips, the lady said, "What did you do, win three dollars?!?!?!?" I laughed and said, "Yep, I'm gonna go buy a starbucks!"

DTXCF, I know I'm kind of like a dead horse, but I have to ask why you seek out live poker? By playing 4/8, you're just effectively punting to rake and reaffirming what your wife believes: that you're wasting money. Plus, I could only imagine what playing games with a 125 BB roll (and dwindling) would do to deteriorate my game. I've lost > 150 bets in like 12 hours live. And I've had like 300-500 hand stretches like that online too.

Really, you should be looking to play the micros online. $1k is chump change for any live game, but it's 100 BI for NL and PLO 10 online.

The other thing you have to realize is that you're hostage to risk of ruin. IOW, you have to fold out in high variance, +EV spots where a better rolled player can comfortably call and absorb it.

So really, my advice would be micros. If you don't like playing when wifey is around, bring the laptop out somewhere. Take it from someone who has attempted the "run like God at 4/8 and then recklessly shot take to make it in the world" strategy: it's not a good idea. Not being comfortable at the stakes you play, no matter how artificial the discomfort is, is a recipe for failure.

Thank you for taking the time to type all that. All advice is appreciated. I *do* play online - mostly PLO on Global - I love it, tons of fun.

I play live poker because it's fun. Whatever my goals were 2, 3, 5 years ago, today my goal is to have fun. It's an extremely rare day that I get up from a poker table not having had fun.

FWIW, technically my bankroll for 4/8 is more like 340BB. It was 125BB at the start of the year 2017 but I've been running very well since then.

So far I've been lucky enough that I haven't had to face the reality of risk of ruin. For the last 5 years I've given myself a daily stoploss of $200 and stuck to it. So far I've been lucky enough that I've never had two consecutive LHE sessions where I've lost my whole $200. As a matter of fact, the last two times I lost $200 in a day I was lucky enough to win it all back the next session. I've also been lucky enough that when I do lose my whole buyin it usually takes me at least 4 hours, so I very rarely have to face the frustration of sitting down, getting cleaned out and quickly having to turn around and leave. Lastly, I've been lucky enough to have constant access to soft (at times RIDICULOUSLY soft) LHE games.

That lucky streak *will* eventually end - I *will* eventually lose my whole $200 3 or 4 sessions in a row. I don't know how I'm going to react when that happens - guess I'll just wait and see! Erst the while, my mentality is just go to the casino and have fun.

Man-up, get some professional coaching and then set your budget at 50k for the year. You can always find a new wife.

In case anyone is still curious, it looks like I will be ending this year at a profit of $750 (very low probability I'll get to play again before 2019). I was hoping to end over $1000 for the second year in a row, but alas it was not to be. Regardless, it's the first time I've ever had two profitable years in a row. And there are still clear, tangible, fixable leaks in my game that I'm working on.

Looking forward to continuing to play, improve and have fun.

I've only gotten to play once so far this year, and I broke my record for the longest single session I've ever played - 9 hours! I didn't want to get up, the table was awesome. Not just because the other players were so bad but because the people were great - I can't remember the last time I'd had that much fun. I'd have played straight through to the morning if I didn't have to work the next day! Got a speeding ticket on the way back home. That sucked, but the cops gotta do their jobs.

Poker has taken a back seat to my health this year. I've been having knee problems for years. In December we took a family vacation to Cancun, and at the end of 5 days of walking about 4 or 5 hours per day my knees were so sore it hurt to walk. I want to retire someday, and when I do I don't want to be a sphere in a wheelchair. I'm 5 weeks into my new diet and exercise plan and so far I'm down 14 pounds. I have about 60 more to go, and I also need to get stronger.

Walk in belly button high water, dude. 60 to 90 minutes per day. Huge calorie burn and totally gentle on joints. About 3/2 calorie burn of on land.