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Old 05-22-2020, 06:45 PM   #1
Mason Malmuth
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Effects of Coffee

Hi Everyone:

Here's a link to an Upswing Poker article about the effects of coffee that I strongly disagree with:

https://upswingpoker.com/coffee-poke...e5af7fe8eaf878

Here are some other coffee articles from the Life Extension Foundation:

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazi...ealth-benefits

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazi...ects-of-coffee

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazi...cular-benefits

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazi...m-daily-coffee

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

PS: While I think highly of Upswing Poker, I think they made an error with this article.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:51 PM   #2
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Check Here for results related to Coffee and anxiety. Even if coffee is associated with longer life (assuming that it isn't simply a correlation without causation), coffee definitely has an adverse effect on poker.

Anecdotally I quit poker 2 months ago and the anxiety I would get from my 3-4 daily cups of coffee has been erased. I don't feel lethargic later in the evening, nor do I feel groggy "until I've had my first coffee."

Caffeine's perceived performance increase could also be due to a reversal of withdrawal

The article talking about 5+ cups of coffee a day having less chance of strokes fails to mention whether those same coffee consumers suffer from other health problems. And again, we don't know whether there are other causes (eg. perhaps anyone who can afford to drink 5+ cups of coffee a day has a higher income).
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:37 PM   #3
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Can the coffee be decaf and still have the health benefits? I drink 3-4 cups a day of that plus 1-2 cups of green tea.
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:51 PM   #4
VeniceMerchant
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Mason, after a quick google of the Life Extension Foundation, I found this article

From the New York Times article (referring to The Life Extension Foundations selling of these so-called anti aging pills:
Quote:
All these claims are a stretch. Most mainstream gerontology researchers maintain that the antiaging benefits of HGH, DHEA and melatonin are dubious or nonexistent. ''There is no evidence that these substances produce the life-span benefits that people say they do,'' says Dr. Richard L. Sprott, associate director of the National Institute on Aging.
So, I wouldn't necessarily trust this source if it's going to be the only website that you cite on the matter.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:59 PM   #5
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniceMerchant View Post
Mason, after a quick google of the Life Extension Foundation, I found this article

From the New York Times article (referring to The Life Extension Foundations selling of these so-called anti aging pills:


So, I wouldn't necessarily trust this source if it's going to be the only website that you cite on the matter.
Hi Venice:

Well, I don't think much of the New York Times, plus these type of articles are usually written by someone with little expertise in the field.

However, that doesn't really matter. If you go to the end of each article that I linked to, you'll see a reference list. Here's the start of one ofthese lists:

References

Patil H, Lavie CJ, O’Keefe JH. Cuppa joe: friend or foe? Effects of chronic coffee consumption on cardiovascular and brain health. Mo Med. 2011 Nov-Dec;108(6):431-8.

Siasos G, Oikonomou E, Chrysohoou C, et al. Consumption of a boiled Greek type of coffee is associated with improved endothelial function: The Ikaria Study. Vasc Med. 2013 Mar 18.

Kokubo Y, Iso H, Saito I, et al. The impact of green tea and coffee consumption on the reduced risk of stroke incidence in Japanese population: The Japan Public Health Center-Based Study Cohort. Stroke. 2013 Mar 14.


So, if you really wanted to find out something as to where the recommendations and conclusions come from, you can start here. It should keep you busy. For example, the list that that I started above actually has 87 references.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:01 AM   #6
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Re: Effects of Coffee

From the Patil H, Lavie CJ, O'Keefe JH study:

Quote:
In a study of Finnish patients with T2DM, those who consumed three or more cups of coffee per day had a statistically non-significant lower risk of death from stroke compared with those who consumed two or fewer cups of coffee per day
Am I missing something?
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:14 AM   #7
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Re: Effects of Coffee

I don't see why studies are needed if we all use it and know many others who do too.

I can focus on the details of how my thought processes decay in poker as I get tired. Slower reaction time is like a keynote to the instability, I also use fewer cases when taking measure during hands. So I'll be prone to not explore different bet sizes and such, and so on....

Coffee pushes my psyche in the opposite direction when facing a state of being tired. It doesn't always work, and I'm aware people feel a drag as it wears off, I really don't so much.

Based on everything I've stated, do you feel compelled to dive into the hypothesis that coffee is extremely bad for poker?
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:12 AM   #8
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Re: Effects of Coffee

i'm a big fan of nyt but agree that journalists are almost never experts and highly dependent upon who they deem an expert and since they aren't experts themselves they are poor judges of qualifications

read the upswing thing, seems not to be based in anything, like it's just a clickbaity opinion piece meant to drive sales for his coaching and topic seems on point since his specific niche appears to be dealing with stress

i think stress is a huge factor in poker, i've definitely played my worst when i was taking shots and terrified of putting money in unless it was the nuts but don't think coffee has ever hurt my game

or better stated, if my game had ever suffered as a result of coffee, then I'd clearly had many other issues going on such as playing tired, in a poor mental state, setting a bad table image (beer drinking bro gets more 4bet calls with JTo than young man coffee), etc etc

author also acknowledges caffeine withdrawal, so this isn't really about poker at all, it's just a lazily written and unsubstantiated article based on his unqualified opinion advocating everyone stop drinking coffee entirely, it's not about not drinking while playing but not drinking full stop

if a scientist or research institution says that and shows why i'll begin to take it seriously, but i'm still not going to stop drinking coffee or tea, something humanity has been doing for millenia without much issue
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:57 AM   #9
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniceMerchant View Post
From the Patil H, Lavie CJ, O'Keefe JH study:

Quote:
In a study of Finnish patients with T2DM, those who consumed three or more cups of coffee per day had a statistically non-significant lower risk of death from stroke compared with those who consumed two or fewer cups of coffee per day
Am I missing something?
Hi Venice:

I think you are. I suspect that the study. or other studies referenced, showed that drinking two or fewer cups of coffee per day, a moderate amount, compared to drinking no coffee was good for you. But drinking three or more cups of coffee per day, more than a mosderate amount, didn't make much difference relative to drinking a moderate amount.

Mason
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:12 PM   #10
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
if a scientist or research institution says that and shows why i'll begin to take it seriously, but i'm still not going to stop drinking coffee or tea, something humanity has been doing for millenia without much issue
This point alone basically invalidates your point. If you're going to do it regardless if any future evidence shows it to be detrimental, you clearly have a bias.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:45 AM   #11
rickroll
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniceMerchant View Post
This point alone basically invalidates your point. If you're going to do it regardless if any future evidence shows it to be detrimental, you clearly have a bias.
no dude, this isn't how it works

there's a difference between denying smoking is harmful vs agreeing smoking is harmful and continuing to smoke

people do lots of things knowing it's bad for you, in this case it would be coffee for me - but if there was enough compelling evidence of something tangible I would certainly quit much as I quit smoking and binge drinking

what i said is that I'm not going to just cease a part of my life because some rando without any scientific background who markets himself as an anti-stress guru has a gut feeling that it's bad for you
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:16 PM   #12
VeniceMerchant
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
if a scientist or research institution says that and shows why i'll begin to take it seriously, but i'm still not going to stop drinking coffee or tea,
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
people do lots of things knowing it's bad for you, in this case it would be coffee for me - but if there was enough compelling evidence of something tangible I would certainly quit much as I quit smoking and binge drinking

what i said is that I'm not going to just cease a part of my life because some rando without any scientific background who markets himself as an anti-stress guru has a gut feeling that it's bad for you
Do you really think your logic is consistent with these two statements?
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:00 AM   #13
rickroll
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Re: Effects of Coffee

yes venice, the world is not binary, everything is a spectrum

i smoked for years knowing it was bad for me because i enjoyed smoking and found it a maneagable risk

later on i changed my mind and decided the cons outweighed the pros and went through hell quitting

it really seems like you're inventing a binary world view just to fight with total strangers

if you're going to do that, at least pick a better topic other than whether or not they'd quit coffee if they discovered drinking it downgraded your chance of getting a heart attack by 50 to 100 in a 100k, that's a pretty scary "it doubles the chance" type of number that in reality only sounds a lot worse than it really is

now if i didn't like coffee that could be enough information or if it were bumped up to 2k out of 100k then i may consider dropping coffee altogether - before you attack these numbers, i wish to assure you they are fabricated out of thin air for rhetorical purposes only so i'll save you a response with the true heart attack chances

be better
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:21 PM   #14
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Re: Effects of Coffee

they just ran out of clickbaity stuff to post
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM   #15
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Re: Effects of Coffee

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
yes venice, the world is not binary, everything is a spectrum
Exactly.

---

I find it slightly inappropriate that Upswing publishes such a piece without having any real expertise on the topic. It's on the level of rainbow press.

I don't really have a clue, either. But I think it has different effects on different people. Think about stronger stimulants such as methylphenidate. The results are very mixed on "normal" people. Some students swear by it for exams and such without having been diagnosed with ADD. For others without ADD, it just doesn't work. However, for people with ADD, methylphenidate overwhelmingly increases attention span and a variety of other measures of cognitive performance.

Don't get me wrong, I fully realize caffeine and Ritalin are very different. Just trying to drive home the point that psychoactive drugs have different effects on different people, especially pychologically but to a lesser degree physically as well.
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