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Old 04-02-2021, 06:10 PM   #1
JayKon
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A curiosity

1/3 NL

fold, fold, open limp, limp, ponders (then limps), limps, I limp, BB checks.

While the dealer is gathering the pot, my attention gets focused on the opener. I try to watch the other players, but I'm almost invariably drawn back to the opener - I don't know why, but it's compelling.

Anyway, I wiff the flop AAx and it's checked around. Turn is checked around. River, the opener bets $22, gets called and shows quad A's.

Though rare, this has happened before. I would love to know what I'm seeing/sensing, but I have no clue.
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Old 04-02-2021, 06:44 PM   #2
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Re: A curiosity

I’m guessing some sort of subtle physical tell is setting off alarm bells. Maybe they’re sitting up more in their seat, seem more excited than usual, are checking faster or more deliberately than usual, or any other number of subtle tells you’ve subconsciously picked up on over the course of your playing.
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Old 04-02-2021, 07:49 PM   #3
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Re: A curiosity

Yea, I looked for all that ... or thought I did anyway. Besides, this all happened before the flop.
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Old 04-02-2021, 11:49 PM   #4
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Re: A curiosity

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Yea, I looked for all that ... or thought I did anyway. Besides, this all happened before the flop.
Are you alluding to a belief that you have some sort of psychic ability? I personally donít believe in psychics but to each their own.
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Old 04-03-2021, 06:46 PM   #5
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Re: A curiosity

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Are you alluding to a belief that you have some sort of psychic ability? I personally donít believe in psychics but to each their own.
While I do believe that some sort of psychic ability exists in people, I believe it requires a very close personal connection: husband & wife, mother & child, deep friendships, etc.

As far as the poker table goes, no. I'm seeing, smelling, hearing something that isn't making it to my conscious mind. I would like to figure out what it is.
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Old 04-03-2021, 06:48 PM   #6
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Re: A curiosity

On reflection, I was being drawn to his eyes. I'll explore that further.
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Old 04-03-2021, 07:14 PM   #7
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Re: A curiosity

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While I do believe that some sort of psychic ability exists in people, I believe it requires a very close personal connection: husband & wife, mother & child, deep friendships, etc.

As far as the poker table goes, no. I'm seeing, smelling, hearing something that isn't making it to my conscious mind. I would like to figure out what it is.
Assuming that the bold part is correct we could think/assume that it is unconscious intuition.
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Old 04-03-2021, 07:39 PM   #8
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Re: A curiosity

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Assuming that the bold part is correct we could think/assume that it is unconscious intuition.
Intuition is the mind's version of muscle memory. It's ultimately based on what you sense compared to what you know. This means that, if you dig, you can specify what you're sensing.
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Old 04-03-2021, 08:59 PM   #9
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Re: A curiosity

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Intuition is the mind's version of muscle memory. It's ultimately based on what you sense compared to what you know. This means that, if you dig, you can specify what you're sensing.
I do think it is more the case of recognizing the sensing part.

And then- because this doesnt work only for your opponents cards, overcomming your startinghands chart conditioning.
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Old 04-03-2021, 09:18 PM   #10
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Re: A curiosity

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I do think it is more the case of recognizing the sensing part.
Agreed, but then that's the hard part.

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And then- because this doesn't work only for your opponents' cards, overcoming your starting hands' chart conditioning.
Oh, after I get a read on the players, the hand chart becomes less relevant.
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Old 04-04-2021, 01:47 PM   #11
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Re: A curiosity

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Agreed, but then that's the hard part.



Oh, after I get a read on the players, the hand chart becomes less relevant.
Yes, but your opponent cards are only half the game no? There are your cards to considder as well, so if it is intuition on your part, it should work in the same way concerning your hand and your opening ranges should be out the door when you sense what ever the feeling is that you sense.

That is the hardest part about intuition, recognizing it- for sure when your intuition resides in the subconscious, and playing your craphand instead of folding UTG with 82o as we have learned to do.
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Old 04-04-2021, 03:41 PM   #12
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Re: A curiosity

The first limper is the most likely to be holding a monster.
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Old 04-04-2021, 05:38 PM   #13
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Re: A curiosity

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The first limper is the most likely to be holding a monster.
This is massively untrue.
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Old 04-04-2021, 07:30 PM   #14
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Re: A curiosity

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This is massively untrue.
who is the most likely and why?
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Old 04-04-2021, 08:30 PM   #15
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Re: A curiosity

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who is the most likely and why?
This is an unanswerable question. You see a lot of EP limping with a wide range of hands. QJ and small pairs seem to be favorites, but it goes to the type of player. Yes, sometimes people will limp from EP with AA/KK, but if you look at the math, the first two positions will only get those hands once every 55 deals, or every couple hours. Most of the time, those hands will raise.

So, you're asking about something that only happens every few hours of play, if at all.
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Old 04-04-2021, 09:16 PM   #16
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Re: A curiosity

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This is an unanswerable question. You see a lot of EP limping with a wide range of hands. QJ and small pairs seem to be favorites, but it goes to the type of player. Yes, sometimes people will limp from EP with AA/KK, but if you look at the math, the first two positions will only get those hands once every 55 deals, or every couple hours. Most of the time, those hands will raise.

So, you're asking about something that only happens every few hours of play, if at all.
Yeah, we're talking about AA and KK.

If someone is going to limp AA/KK, is it more likely that he will do it first-in and in ep or second-in in mp, based on your experience and based on how you think people think?

It's not unanswerable, it's obvious. How is it "massively untrue" that first-in is more likely to be limping AA/KK than second-in? I'm sure you wont ask me to prove it, as though I have video with card-readers of every hand ever played.
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Old 04-04-2021, 10:35 PM   #17
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Re: A curiosity

Well, taken literally, I suppose you're right. However, how likely is it that you'll get wet when it rains?

Well, if you go outside every day of the year, on any given day you won't get wet. Also, if you park in the garage, you won't get wet. Yet, that one day you have to step in it, you'll probably only get a little wet.

It's a probability thing. Yes, EP limpers are more likely to have AA/KK than MP, or LP. But that probability is going to be very small, to the point of not even considering unless and until further action demands a reevaluation.

Edit: I suppose that analogy won't work if you live in Seattle.
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Old 04-12-2021, 05:38 AM   #18
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Re: A curiosity

Your subconscious mind gathers info that is just outside of your consciousness.
So you might be "noticing" or being drawn to something that you're not aware of.
With proper training you can become aware of these things.

In "The art of learning" by Josh Waitzkin he describes this process perfectly.

He's training for the world championship of Taiji Push Hands with an experienced partner.
They know all the tiny tells of each other, acting on those to gain tiny advantages. Often without actually consciously knowing what they're acting/reacting on.
Every time this happens they explorer what happened and learn to notice new tells and how to counter them.
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Old 04-13-2021, 12:51 AM   #19
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Re: A curiosity

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Your subconscious mind gathers info that is just outside of your consciousness.
So you might be "noticing" or being drawn to something that you're not aware of.
With proper training you can become aware of these things.

In "The art of learning" by Josh Waitzkin he describes this process perfectly.

He's training for the world championship of Taiji Push Hands with an experienced partner.
They know all the tiny tells of each other, acting on those to gain tiny advantages. Often without actually consciously knowing what they're acting/reacting on.
Every time this happens they explorer what happened and learn to notice new tells and how to counter them.
Ordered, I'll let you know.
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Old 04-15-2021, 06:29 AM   #20
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Re: A curiosity

There is a virtually limitless amount of non-verbal communication that we pick up on, even more so probably in poker where many of us aren't talking much, if at all. Some could be said to rise to the level of ESP, where the effect is virtually of broadcasting one's thinking with dead giveaways. Often in science reframing the question leads to progress that seemed blocked, as in the following two questions:

Does the magic of ESP exist?

Does ESP exist? (Are we sensing something beyond what is clearly delineated as coming from our senses?)

I don't get the characterization of intuition as "muscle memory." I prefer something like "thoughts, synthesis, impressions, puzzle solving outside of conscious awareness by the reservoir of data and experience held in memory," or more simply "subconscious appraisal." That's a very real thing and isn't a magic claim, of course. No problem for the super computer that is the human brain, prescious little of which is held in conscious awareness.
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Old 05-12-2021, 10:40 PM   #21
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Re: A curiosity

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Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
Your subconscious mind gathers info that is just outside of your consciousness.
So you might be "noticing" or being drawn to something that you're not aware of.
With proper training, you can become aware of these things.

In "The art of learning" by Josh Waitzkin he describes this process perfectly.

He's training for the world championship of Taiji Push Hands with an experienced partner.
They know all the tiny tells of each other, acting on those to gain tiny advantages. Often without actually consciously knowing what they're acting/reacting on.
Every time this happens they explorer what happened and learn to notice new tells and how to counter them.
Finished the book and found it to be a good read, though an unusual recommendation to come from a poker site. I can see several applications to anyone that competes at anything, though the application to poker will be a bit challenging.

In particular, Josh uses a video camera in his training. That would be difficult in a poker game.

Still, I enjoyed it and will reread it. While the practical information is buried deep in the story, it seems to have the most impact as part of the story. I think I mostly understand why he did it that way. He felt, probably correctly, that the training needs to be in context, with examples to be properly understood.

Thanks,
Jay

PS. For everyone else thinking about the book, while reading it is a good idea, it's about playing chess and the martial arts side of Tai Chi, not poker.

I would, however, recommend it to Mason.
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Old 05-14-2021, 09:54 AM   #22
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Re: A curiosity

Glad you liked it!
Yeah it's not about poker at all, but I thought it to be very applicable to poker.

Getting into poker games that are filmed shouldn't be too hard.
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Old 05-14-2021, 08:05 PM   #23
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Re: A curiosity

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Glad you liked it!
Yeah it's not about poker at all, but I thought it to be very applicable to poker.

Getting into poker games that are filmed shouldn't be too hard.
The video streams I've seen always focus on the player to act, I'm interested in those who haven't acted yet. Besides, I pull a lot of moves that I don't want people seeing.
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Old 05-20-2021, 07:54 PM   #24
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Re: A curiosity

Open limping from EP is more rare than any overlimping done by other players.

Limp reraising with AA or KK isn't particularly rare at LLSNL, but overlimping to do it is.
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:45 PM   #25
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Re: A curiosity

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Open limping from EP is more rare than any overlimping done by other players.

Limp reraising with AA or KK isn't particularly rare at LLSNL, but overlimping to do it is.
Open limping in 1/3 is very common.
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