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Old 01-07-2018, 02:44 PM   #51
Elrazor
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
Well, people aren't consciously aware of how they naturally strategize. If they are consciously aware of that, then this will not be an issue.
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Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
Okay, so:

Unconscious incompetence = Suffers from cognitive dissonance
Conscious incompetence = Doesn't suffer from cognitive dissonance
Conscious competence = Doesn't suffer from cognitive dissonance
Unconscious competence = Suffers from cognitive dissonance

How does this make any conceptual sense?
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Old 01-07-2018, 03:06 PM   #52
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

You guys have gone full bunny-boiler on me.

At any of those stages the knowledge can cause cognitive dissonance. I didn't say that it wouldn't lol.

I think it's clear that you know nothing of psychology and are suffering from CogD. I'm going to stop replying to you now.
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Old 01-07-2018, 03:37 PM   #53
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

Let me just highlight something Bob said; "If you don't use GTO, you are making an error". This is how they commonly think of it. They all use the same words. GTO plays are "correct". If it isn't GTO its an "error".

I clearly explained that I suspect that I would make more money with the non-GTO play, but he doesn't even see the part of my post that points to that. He genuinely believes that I chose to make the less profitable option. It's madness.
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Old 01-07-2018, 03:55 PM   #54
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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- I can open the T7s, so as to widen my perceived range in future situations. This is likely to lose me money now, but, a lot of weak players struggle against steals so why not. I'm likely to win often too, and this is not far from GTO so if I do lose I wont lose much on average.
Your exact words imply that you think this play is losing money. Then you try to backtrack here:

Quote:
I clearly explained that I suspect that I would make more money with the non-GTO play
You can't have it both ways. Either you lose money on average by opening T7s, or you make money on average by opening T7s.

Now, if I take this last quote literally, I can safely assume that you meant the latter and I think we can make progress:

Quote:
"If you don't use GTO, you are making an error"
No I didn't say that. Please don't misquote me. Opening with unprofitable hands is an error; if you believe that you can profitably play T7s because you think you're better at poker than your unknown opponents, then I agree with you that you should play it.
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Old 01-07-2018, 04:11 PM   #55
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
You guys have gone full bunny-boiler on me.

At any of those stages the knowledge can cause cognitive dissonance. I didn't say that it wouldn't lol.

I think it's clear that you know nothing of psychology and are suffering from CogD. I'm going to stop replying to you now.
Yes, you did:

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Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
Well, people aren't consciously aware of how they naturally strategize. If they are consciously aware of that, then this will not be an issue.
You've spent 6 years or whatever it is working on this conceptual framework and writing a book, and you can't even defend it against some fairly basic probing. The fact that you think anyone who disagrees with you is suffering from cognitive dissonance displays both your lack of understanding of the theory, and your lack of understanding of how scientific inquiry works.
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:01 PM   #56
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

I'm not struggling to defend myself lol.

Being consciously aware of this thought process stops you from suffering from cogD. But those 4 stages of learning are what leads to you developing an unconscious grasp of something. I suspect that you would have to be consciously aware of both conflicting views before they stopped causing cogD.

Last edited by Yadoula8; 01-07-2018 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:06 PM   #57
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Your exact words imply that you think this play is losing money. Then you try to backtrack here:



You can't have it both ways. Either you lose money on average by opening T7s, or you make money on average by opening T7s.

Now, if I take this last quote literally, I can safely assume that you meant the latter and I think we can make progress:



No I didn't say that. Please don't misquote me. Opening with unprofitable hands is an error; if you believe that you can profitably play T7s because you think you're better at poker than your unknown opponents, then I agree with you that you should play it.
Errrgghh this is getting tiresome...

We dont know if we can exploit the opponent, so we dont know which option will be better for us. As it is so close to GTO, I suspect that we get more from the exploitative line.

Both eventualities are likely... Both options could be better for us... It isn't complicated buddy... You just have this thing... Please stop clogging up this thread with meaningless derogative arguments.

Last edited by Yadoula8; 01-07-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:33 AM   #58
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
Being consciously aware of this thought process stops you from suffering from cogD. But those 4 stages of learning are what leads to you developing an unconscious grasp of something. I suspect that you would have to be consciously aware of both conflicting views before they stopped causing cogD.
This just makes no sense. By definition, cognitive dissonance requires you to be consciously aware of the conflicting attitudes, beliefs or behaviors.

Yet you are saying that when players are consciously aware of the thought process, they can no longer suffer from cognitive dissonance. In contrast, you are saying it's only when they are not aware of your thought process theory that they suffer from CD.

This makes no sense. Can you cite any research showing that attitudes, beliefs or behaviors only cause CD when you're not consciously aware of them, but disappear when you become conscious of them?
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:50 AM   #59
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

Well, you said that CogD can be caused when someone thinks they are amazing at, say, chess, yet they constantly lose.

If this person were aware that there was no luck in chess, and that his opponents were not amazing etc, he would have no choice but to overcome his false view about his ability.

In this way we cant consciously hold onto two views that conflict. This is one of the ways we can get past cogD. "By acquiring new information that outweighs the dissonant beliefs."

This same thing happens when you learn a new Level. The natural thought-process is undeniably perfect, and so, the second it is accepted by the person it instantly outweighs all their dissonant beliefs. This doesn't mean that all the dissonant plays will be rendered useless. Instead, the player just understands the plays more clearly. For example, learning GTO is very useful but when you understand all the levels you realise that you should be avoiding it like the plague. You should almost never be making GTO plays. These GTO plays are not correct, and making another play is certainly not guaranteed to be a mistake. Knowledge of the GTO plays is handy, and whenever we break through to a new level we better understand the logic behind the plays. Because the knowledge is still useful, advancing through the levels is purely beneficial. It even feels awesome when you crack a new level. You understand all your plays "better". All your knowledge becomes more valuable. And just like the first man in the allegory of the cave, you are granted a feeling of euphoria. When you crack a new level you will feel a wave of bliss. And you will win a whole lot more too!
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:05 AM   #60
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
Well, you said that CogD can be caused when someone thinks they are amazing at, say, chess, yet they constantly lose.

If this person were aware that there was no luck in chess, and that his opponents were not amazing etc, he would have no choice but to overcome his false view about his ability.

In this way we cant consciously hold onto two views that conflict. This is one of the ways we can get past cogD. "By acquiring new information that outweighs the dissonant beliefs."
I didn't say chess, I said poker - and the reason I said poker was because players always have a lot more excuses not to face the reality that they are not very good, such as variance, the software being rigged, etc.

Given this, I agree with your second point about a game like chess, that CD is not really a factor, as there are very few factors that the player can blame their losses on, other than ability.

However, your third point that "we can't consciously hold onto two views that conflict" contradicts the very essence of CD. People gamble even knowing the house has an edge; they smoke and drink knowing it will probably shorten their lives, and so on, and so forth. People are not rational, and simply presenting them with information will not necessarily reduce the CD.
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Can you cite any research showing that attitudes, beliefs or behaviors only cause CD when you're not consciously aware of them, but disappear when you become conscious of them?
I'll take that as a no then.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:44 AM   #61
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

I just typed into google, how to get past cognitive dissonance, and this quote jumped out at me.

"By acquiring new information that outweighs the dissonant beliefs."

I'm sure there are loads of studies into this. It is obvious to me without seeing the source material. If the person understands both pieces of knowledge accurately, the knowledge will no longer conflict.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:26 AM   #62
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
I just typed into google, how to get past cognitive dissonance, and this quote jumped out at me.
So you've spent 6 years writing and researching this, and you're still asking Google for help?
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Old 01-08-2018, 01:30 PM   #63
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

Thanks for that childish derogative nonsense. I have just decided to ditch this site because of people like you.

Byyyeeee!! This site sucks. I'm gonna make a better one.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:24 PM   #64
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:15 AM   #65
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

Anyone who truly understands how complex of a game no limit holdem is, and achieving real in game maintainable GTO is, understands the absurdity of the idea that it has tricked the majority of the community. The best of the best (guys studying 8 hrs a day everyday for years) will only get and be able to maintain MAYBE (educated guess) 3-5% of the plays a computer gto player would play. On top of that, the GTO decision is almost ALWAYS the lesser ev decision, because the GTO decision is assuming we are playing against another amazing computer not making mistakes.

Exploitative>>>>>>GTO by miles. That said, using programs like piosolver etc to construct your REALISTIC balanced ranges and get a better deep understanding on why its doing what its doing so you can figure things out on the fly/have very good intuition. This allows you to build your ranges in a more realistic human maintainable way through simplification of pio solver.

It seems everyone has caught what I call the "gto virus" and yes I also succumbed to it for a few years. It sounds so perfect, "unexploitable poker" that has to be the way forward! We then forget the infinite amount of mistakes human beings make and miss a lot of ev while adding a lot of work and confusion trying to perfectly understand something you will never get close to. Anyone whos primary focus is playing as gto as possible (think guys like sauce etc) vs everyone, including even fish sometimes, has the gto virus. This is my opinion and I have been doing quite well at 500z lately as my main game and have been a winning stars msnl-10/20 (25/50 shot went bad vs whales lol) since 2007.

This is just my opinion, if it is possible for humans to actually emulate piosolver itself playing 6mnl to any significant degree, I applaud your genius brain. Good luck guys!

note : not saying to not bother with gto programs, and using them to build your ranges and finding ways of simplifying it and or understanding underlying logic of it to build understanding of game. That said I believe many many people use these programs in a way that is wasting time, especially all the single hand pio reviews in runitonce videos or whatnot. Couldn't think of a bigger waste of time if its not a pre selected hand to start a discussion on a common situation.

Adam
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:49 AM   #66
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

That was a good post and I agree with everything you say. However, you seem to think that I think these GTO players have cracked GTO, but I don't at all.

All Im saying is that trusting in any GTO plays makes it harder to advance your understanding of exploitative theory. This happens because the GTO plays conflict with the natural, exploitative, decision making method that is built into our minds. That is why the poker world thinks that the higher exploitative Levels of thought are difficult to consider. The simple truth is that it is very easy to operate on the higher levels, and the only reason people struggle is they have blocked the conscious ability to even approach these higher levels of thought.
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Old 01-30-2018, 06:11 PM   #67
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

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That is why the poker world thinks that the higher exploitative Levels of thought are difficult to consider. The simple truth is that it is very easy to operate on the higher levels, and the only reason people struggle is they have blocked the conscious ability to even approach these higher levels of thought.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/mysticism.html
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:33 PM   #68
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

Here is an example of cognitive dissonance in poker. A player is facing an all-in on the river. He knows his opponent has the best hand. However, he can't accept this truth because it is too painful. It is more pleasant to think that his opponent is bluffing and that by calling, he will win the entire pot. So, he says to himself that he isn't 100% sure that his opponent has better cards. He has seen this opponent bluff before. If he doesn't call, he'll never know for sure. This is also a painful thought. It would be better to know for sure. This is what is going through this players mind instead of making an easy fold. So he calls even though he knows he is beat.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:18 PM   #69
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

yeah well said yadoula, agreed.
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:09 PM   #70
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Poker

I think the same thing happens in other "games" too, and that could be extremely important...

Buddha was blatantly the leading mind on, well, the mind. And he seemed to say that all imperfect strategies we adopt in life will lead us to emotional distress and will make it harder for us to see way that existance really works.

It's exactly the same! Maybe we all suffer from this thing all day everyday?? Perhaps it is trusting in imperfect strategies that causes all of our emotional distress?? This could be insanely important... But, good luck discussing it with anyone.
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