Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Psychology Discussions of psychology as applied to poker and other gambling games.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-11-2019, 02:58 AM   #1
fasterlearner
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 416
anyone figure out tilt yet

Probably not.

I hate losing like everyone, but I think it affects me more than most.

I'm always working on tilt control. I think I've improved slightly, but
damn I still get pretty heated on really bad sessions.

I wish I could just accept the fact that super unlucky ridiculous sessions
will happen, and I usually can take 1 no problem. But they seem to accumulate in me, and if I have a run like 4 of 5 sessions that are a complete diaster, I go NUTS

Its even hard for me to learn from these sessions, cause when I look back to review them I just get sick at how crazy unlucky I am. They seem almost impossible to me. It almost seems silly to review cause these sessions are unwinnable. Usually my biggest mistakes during these sessions are payoffs I shouldn't make, but I know they are tilt payoffs where players are polarized to nuts / bluffs , and I just have to see it, cause I can't believe its possible for my opponents to have the nuts on me so incredibly frequently. So I end up maybe paying off. I know if I run even somewhat close to normal I would never pay this off, but I just saw my opponents have the nuts on me every hand they show, while I fold the rest & they bet like they have the nuts. So
I make a tilt payoff figuring they can't have the nuts again damn like it seems impossible to me people can have more pat hands than I have pairs.
So I pay off the 7th or 8th time they have the nuts.

I suppose usually venting doesn't help much either.

Has anyone ever made serious improvements in their tilt control?
fasterlearner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 03:58 AM   #2
Chiggs
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1,680
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

http://losingstress.com/2019/02/08/t...sing-in-poker/

PS I recorded this. I'm not sure this goes against TwoPlusTwo T&Cs but hopefully not because I think it is of real use and is a free resource.
Chiggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 04:28 AM   #3
prisms
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: In pieces
Posts: 81
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

Tilt is a corrosive substance that seeps into the aspects of human emptiness. It's an actual hole - what do we fill it with? Distractions, work, drugs. There are holes in our poker games too, popularly spotted as leaks. Good adaptive strategy is a bridge that floods tilt away from the emptiness.
prisms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 06:59 AM   #4
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,030
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post
Probably not.

I hate losing like everyone, but I think it affects me more than most.

I'm always working on tilt control. I think I've improved slightly, but
damn I still get pretty heated on really bad sessions.

I wish I could just accept the fact that super unlucky ridiculous sessions
will happen, and I usually can take 1 no problem. But they seem to accumulate in me, and if I have a run like 4 of 5 sessions that are a complete diaster, I go NUTS

Its even hard for me to learn from these sessions, cause when I look back to review them I just get sick at how crazy unlucky I am. They seem almost impossible to me. It almost seems silly to review cause these sessions are unwinnable. Usually my biggest mistakes during these sessions are payoffs I shouldn't make, but I know they are tilt payoffs where players are polarized to nuts / bluffs , and I just have to see it, cause I can't believe its possible for my opponents to have the nuts on me so incredibly frequently. So I end up maybe paying off. I know if I run even somewhat close to normal I would never pay this off, but I just saw my opponents have the nuts on me every hand they show, while I fold the rest & they bet like they have the nuts. So
I make a tilt payoff figuring they can't have the nuts again damn like it seems impossible to me people can have more pat hands than I have pairs.
So I pay off the 7th or 8th time they have the nuts.

I suppose usually venting doesn't help much either.

Has anyone ever made serious improvements in their tilt control?
The following is from my book Real Poker Psychology.

Best wishes,
Mason

A Mathematical Model of ďTiltĒ ó Cause and Cure


Many years ago, in 1975, I finally left my home at Virginia Tech and went to work as a Mathematical Statistician for the United Stated Census Bureau. Upon arrival, I found myself assigned to an office with several well educated statisticians. This meant that there was always a statistical journal around and an article to read.

After working for a few months, my supervisor brought over the latest journal article that others had already found quite interesting. Unfortunately, I donít remember the name of the article, who the author was, or what particular journal it was in. So to this unknown author I apologize for not giving proper credit.

The article was about a mathematical definition of humor, and itís my conviction that tilt follows the same pathways with one major difference. However, for those who donít know, letís describe tilt at a poker table:
Generally, what happens is that a player, after sustaining a series of losses will begin to play in a sub-optimal manner, and sometimes this can appear to be, and truly is, quite irrational. Usually it manifests itself by the tilted player playing far too many hands, meaning many hands for which the expectation would be negative. Thus this player will tend to have results much worse than what he would normally expect.

However, by playing too many hands, the tilted player can occasionally get lucky and actually do quite well in the short run. When this happens, the tilting will almost always stop and the steamer will return to their normal game.

Other characteristics can also be seen. This can include yelling at the dealer, demanding that new cards be brought to the table, getting upset at other players, and playing in an extremely aggressive manner.

In addition, I have even noticed that on occasion tilt can carry over from one day to another. On several occasions I have observed a new player sitting down in my game, and after announcing that he was a big loser from the day before, immediately begin to play in a tilted fashion. So itís clear to me that tilt can last a long time.
Now that we have a definition of tilt out of the way, to understand what is to follow, we need to define a continuous function and a point of discontinuity. And weíll use this very simple definition:
A continuous function is a line or curve that you can draw across a piece of paper from left to right without lifting up your pen or pencil.
In other words, it will just look like a line, not necessarily straight, that starts on the left side of the paper and finishes on the right. On the other hand, if itís necessary to lift your pen or pencil up and then set it down at another point producing a gap in what you are drawing, this is a point of discontinuity, and your function is no longer continuous at that point.

Continuing with the article I read many years ago, it then argued that humor was simply points of discontinuity in the logic presented that your brain had to process. And it gave this example which to the best of my ability is repeated below:
There was a young lady who wanted to have a boyfriend. But she had some requirements. She told her friends that her future man needed to be short but well dressed. So her friends introduced her to a penguin.
Notice that this little joke is funny and it contains a point of discontinuity which weíll call a logic disconnect. While a penguin is certainly short, and they do appear to be well dressed, this is obviously not an appropriate boyfriend. But the brain processes this discontinuity, understands it, and finds it funny. And itís my contention that the fact that the brain can understand what has happened is what causes it to be funny.

Put another way, the brain has figured it out or solved the puzzle, and weíll come back to this idea below. But as long as the puzzle is solved, humor appears and we find the experience enjoyable.

Three other examples of humorous discontinuities are when Groucho Marx, aka Captain Spalding, stated:
One morning, I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas Iíll never know.
Or when Mae West commented:
When Iím good, Iím very, very good, but when Iím bad, Iím better.
Or when W. C. Fields said:
There is not a man in America who has not had a secret ambition to boot an infant.
It should be obvious, as in the penguin example that was in the original article I read many years ago, what the logic disconnects are. We see the logic discontinuity and also understand the error of the logic. Thus we laugh.

But what happens when a logic disconnect happens and we donít understand the error in the logic. That is, our brain is unable to solve the puzzle that has been presented to it. Do we still find it funny?

Itís my contention that instead of humor, the brain sort of shorts out, or perhaps gets caught in an infinite logic loop similar to what can be caused by some sort of bad computer programming. This leads to frustration, and in extreme cases, irrational decisions.

Recently, I was sent a paper titled ďĎThis is just so unfair!:í A qualitative analysis of loss-induced emotions and tilting in on-line pokerĒ by Jussi Paloma, Michael Laakasuoa, and Mikko Salmela from the University of Helsinski in Finland. One of the things that they pointed out is tilted players often donít sleep well. Could this disruption in sleep be caused by the infinite logic loop that our brain is stuck in still being active? I believe so.

When playing poker, despite what some others have claimed, I virtually never go on tilt. But there is something I do all the time where tilt occasionally gets the best of me. Itís playing tennis, and this is an activity that has been part of my life since I was a kid, and that was a long time ago.

What will occasionally happen is that Iíll miss an easy shot which is simply impossible to miss, or perhaps miss several shots in a row where I shouldnít miss any of them, or my service toss isnít straight when trying to serve, etc. And my mind will view these things as simply being impossible. That is, there is no logical way that any of this can happen. Iíve been playing too long and have too much skill for these events to occur. But they do occur and a logical point of discontinuity is manifested.

But unlike the humorous examples given above, there is no solution. Iím not able to realize that a penguin is not a potential boyfriend for a young lady even though he seems to meet some of the criteria, that an elephant was not really in Captain Spaldingís pajamas, that Mae West wasnít referring to being polite and well behaved, and that weíre not suppose to be kicking little kids across the room. My logic just fails because, again, there is no solution, or at least it seems that way.

This brings us to poker. Here itís my opinion the same problem occurs for many people. When they lose several hands in a row, or canít understand how their aces are cracked, or have trouble dealing with running bad, itís again a logic disconnect. To the person on tilt, in their mind, the events that just occurred are simply impossible, and thus their logical circuitry, so to speak, gets locked up as the information that their brain needs to process enters some sort of infinite loop.

So whatís the solution to this? Itís simple. Understand poker and the probabilistic events that govern it better. Once you get a grasp of the fact that your aces can be beat, itís very possible, and eventually quite likely, to lose several hands in a row, and running bad for long periods of time can and will happen, tilt goes away.

In fact, when you see good players who are known not to tilt suffer a horrendous beat, they usually chuckle. Their minds have the solution at the end of the discontinuity. So instead of processing it as frustration, they process all the chips going the wrong way as an ďelephant in my pajamas.Ē That is, they see these events as being funny, not frustrating.

On the other hand, youíll occasionally hear about a player, usually because he has won a tournament or two, who claims to have never read a poker book. While this may be literally true, itís also my observation that many of these people are steamers and do poorly in the cash games. I also donít think their poor results here and lack of studying is coincidental, and suspect that their constant tilting is from an incomplete knowledge of poker, and an unwillingness to gain that knowledge.

On our forums at www.twoplustwo.com, I have written many times that understanding the game of poker well is the best cure for tilt. Now most of you can understand my reasoning behind this. Tilt is not a ďfight or flightĒ experience as some people have proposed. (If it were, we would see lots of fights in the poker room, and a poker room fight is something that only happens on very rare occasions.) Itís actually something humorous where the logic that your mind requires gets hung up. And once you acquire enough information that your mind wonít get hung up in an infinite logic loop, tilt should be a thing of the past.
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 06:46 PM   #5
tmo1120
adept
 
tmo1120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southwest, FL
Posts: 910
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

You're not alone here, key part of this is comparing your worst to your previous worst, look for small improvements that you are making

comparing your worst to your best will make you feel awful and go nuts

figure out what type of tilt you struggle with ; why is it logical that you tilt?

why is this logic flawed? what is the correction the this mental game flaw?

having the illusion of control is a very common mental game flaw
tmo1120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 10:28 AM   #6
Chiggs
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1,680
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

I have to respond to Mason's post because it will lead people down an incomplete path.

Mason makes a valid point about clearing up ignorance around the variance of poker. I think we can accept that if one doesn't understand the nature of poker it will lead to confusion and emotional distress.

However, this is limited.

It is limited precisely because it is based on logic and thought. And tilt is not a product of logic.

When you are aware of tilt, you notice how it is of a very similar nature to stress.

So what is tilt?

Tilt is the reactionary struggle with coming to terms with the reality of what has happened. It is the emotions, thoughts and behavioural responses brought about by an aggravated state of mind.

And so when tilt is there do logical injections work?

Looking at the neuroscience of the human brain when tilt is occurring shows the limitations of logic. As the emotional centres of the brain (what's known as The Reptilian brain) become active and receive the main blood flow thus preventing clear cognitive thinking in the prefrontal cortex.

When you examine tilt more closely you recognise that someone's propensity to tilt is based on two main factors:

1) The circumstances leading up to the poker session/hand in play.

When it comes to individual sessions, poker not going well recently, life outside of poker not being perceived as going well are two major contributing factors to tilt. Note how this often occurs unconsciously.

Poker is played within the context of one's life.

At an individual hand level you can observe how losing "key" pots increases the propensity to tilt.

2) Their habitual reaction to losing dependent on the stimuli

What's easily observed is the bigger the (perceived) loss the stronger the reaction.

What this implies is that tilt is a real time issue.

To get to grips with tilt requires an understanding of one's own mind. Understanding the very nature of tilt IS the solution. And a real-time understanding of one's own mind is brought about through awareness.
Chiggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 04:22 PM   #7
tmo1120
adept
 
tmo1120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southwest, FL
Posts: 910
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

i think one of the most important things to understand is that we are chopping down the tree with an axe not a Buzzsaw

meaning this is a long drawn out process and solving tilt over night is not realistic

so get to work and keep hacking away at your mental game leaks, tracking progression along the way
tmo1120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 11:14 PM   #8
Nozsr
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: between sessions
Posts: 1,418
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

Chugs makes a good point for readers who are not quite yet capable of self-imposed discipline to accept the results of what appears to them to be "undue" variance that is not in their favor.

Some of those who seem to have this discipline are not immune from tilt, it just takes more "undue" variance to tilt them. And some have seen enough to take it all in stride despite the "unfairness of it all".

But the sooner one can return to a more rational state and accept Mason's view as posted here, the sooner one can reboot from the tilted state. What he wrote then and recites now is as valuable now as it was then. Discount or ignore it at your own peril.

IMO.
Nozsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 11:19 PM   #9
Nozsr
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: between sessions
Posts: 1,418
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

And the corollary to that is, when sun-running, remind ourselves that it's not us, it's only the deck massaging our ego and augmenting our endorphins. It won't last forever - just like everything else that massages our egos and augments our endorphins.

"Undue variance" won't last forever either. (Unless we go broke and stop playing before the abyss of undue variance has been successfully crossed.)
Nozsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2019, 11:48 AM   #10
FellaGaga-52
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,176
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozsr View Post
And the corollary to that is, when sun-running, remind ourselves that it's not us, it's only the deck massaging our ego and augmenting our endorphins. It won't last forever - just like everything else that massages our egos and augments our endorphins.

"Undue variance" won't last forever either. (Unless we go broke and stop playing before the abyss of undue variance has been successfully crossed.)
Luv it. Seems massively righteous about ego, variance and the interplay between the two. However I see tilt as involving abandoning one's knowledge much more than it is having processing problems per se. "I abandon my discipline, judgment, standards and sound strategy ... trying blindly to win RIGHT NOW." That's pretty much the essence of tilt, imo. So that it's more about understanding oneself (and having self-control) than understanding the game. Likewise, one might "tilt" in their marriage and have a really ugly not particularly rational fight. Might have a PhD in marriage counseling, be the author of the textbooks, etc and still do this at times. One's abstract knowledge is not always enough to control emotions and behavior, and the life of human beings attests to that dramatically and empirically.
FellaGaga-52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2019, 07:59 AM   #11
Chiggs
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1,680
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

Hopefully this provides further clarity on the post I made earlier - http://losingstress.com/2019/02/15/i...ution-to-tilt/
Chiggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2019, 06:27 PM   #12
Whitemarbles
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 32
Re: anyone figure out tilt yet

I have a question for Mason and Chiggs specifically if you don’t mind; I think both of your posts in this thread are the most eye opening wrt tilt. My question is - What methods do you recommend or advise I use/do to stay in line with my out of game goals, bankroll management, times I play etc. I find that I set some goals where I want to remain at a certain stake until I reach x amount and then shortly after I see a great game and talk myself into taking the shot repeatedly crippling myself.

Thanks in advance.
Whitemarbles is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online