Yeah hi,

I've spent the last few years playing this game, losing money. I read the books. THeres that one that says only after you've guessed your opponent's hole cards or at least narrowed it down to a range, you will be able to make the best decision. In my opinion, the best players that can win most of the time are the ones that can lay down big hands based on their assessment of the opponent hole cards, and also extracting max value when they have the superior hand.

I've reached a point where I'm able to exactly guess their cards, but still pay off bets because deep down im angry the pos got his card on the river. I pot control specifically for the reason of being able to release the hand when the unlikely draw card hits to improve the opponent's weaker hand.

Example:

I've gone from $80 to $210 in about 60 minutes at nlhe 1/2. I've been hitting lots of good hands, and releasing at the right times so far. I raise to 6 with A9 in MP and everyone folds. QJo is the next hand. I limp this time, and the kid to my left raises to 6. He has about 400 in front of him, and I doubled up through him earlier with a nut king high flopped flush. It's me and him heads up after I call. Because he has me covered, I want to keep this pot as small as possible.

Flop : Qs 9s 3d

I check. He bets something light, it was very obvious at that point he was just cbetting with nothing, or an unlikely draw like a KT or JT or a spade draw. I made the mistake, in hindsight, of calling here. Actually, calling here isn't even that bad of a play, as long as you fold when the draw cards hit by the river.

Turn: 4 s

I check, then HE CHECKS. That check reinforces the fact that he had nothing on the flop, and must have a draw if he bet.

River : Jd

Because I was winning, I started playing worse. I should have checked again, instead I bet $11. Actually, that's not a bad play because itll further reinforce he made his straight or flush, more likely a straight since if he made a flush he would not have checked the turn. SUre enough, he raises to $30, a green and red chip. I had just won my first green chip from someone else, so it was also now possible he had a nut hand that beat the board and was going after my green chip.

The following says he has a KT for a straight:

-Going after the green I just won
-raising light, c betting light, then checking the flop
-betting a lot on the river relative to previous streets

I called after deliberating, and he flipped over KT. Because I made the wrong decision, in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary, I decided I lost my whole stack, even though I had $180 after that hand. A few hands later I have garbage 94dd, and call a $15 raise from one of the tighter players whose range was an obvious JJ-AA. Only cards he plays. I flopped a nine, and he three barreled my whole stack, even though it was completely obvious he had AA or KK, and everything was gone after that.

How do I make the right decisions when I know I'm beat esp by the river, and know what they have in their hands? How do I overcome the anger I feel when they beat me by fifth street?

TL;DR. If you can guess "exactly" their hole cards, then stop paying off. Simple. Now go win the monies!

I described the pieces of information that unfolded as the hand progressed that pointed to KT, if I have QJ. Would you not agree that's pretty much the only thing he could have?

The 94 hand was even more obvious. I felt like I lost the game because I made a mistake against the rivered gutshot.

Here's a player who, 30 hands ago, had KK and lost to a turned straight. Now he opens again, and three barrels a low board. It's completely obvious he has AA or KK.

The other problem I have is I'm so used to losing, that when I start winning by playing WELL and OBSERVANT, I lose that focus. Also at this particular game, you have to play for at least 2 hours before you can leave. So it's like I win 100 in an hour and can't leave. It feels like the money isn't mine.

This sounds like a classic case of pay off wizardry with a side order of tilt.

How do we help you? We really can't, unfortunately. This is something you have to grow and mature out of your on your own.

It's like telling a degen to stop playing roulette. They KNOW it's a losing play, but they can't help it.

Cliffs:

Played TPGK passively ==> lost medium pot ==> tilt ==> lost stack

My thoughts:

Pre-flop is meh. Limp-calling QJo is not great, and you don't have position. That said, the raise to $6 is so small that callings isn't terrible.
Flop is fine though it would be good to know how much he bet. You're ahead of a lot of his c-betting range, but raising would only get called by better Qs and good draws.
Turn is fine. We have a medium strength hand and it's find to pot control.
I like the bet on the river, though don't know the pot size so hard to say if the sizing makes sense. We're ahead of KQ and AQ now, and the only draw that got there was KT. When he raises you, there are two questions you have to ask yourself. First, can he bluff-raise the river? Most people can't, so you can't call to bluff catch. Second, could he be value-owning himself with a worse hand. KQ and AQ probably aren't raising. Not a lot of worse two-pairs in his range (assume he's probably not raising J9 or Q9 pre-flop). He could have QJ too. So, think river is a bet/fold.

The much bigger problem is that this reasonably standard hand put you on tilt. It's not a very big hand, and even calling the river you don't play it that badly. I'd focus much less on the hand you highlighted here and much more on the fact that you called of your stack with 94dd after flopping a pair with no kicker.

Thnx MIB. Appreciate the analysis. It really wasn't a big pot you know I was still way up....180 left after the mistake having bought in for 80. IS it okay after that? I haven't lost yet right? I still can come back.

Dude the 94 garbage would have been instantly mucked if I wasn't upset about calling off my green chip.

I'm still in the game after that hand right? I don't need to dump the rest of my stack to an over pair that otherwise would make no money if I wasn't upset, which in the end makes me a winner. That's always been my outlook that if you fold to a better hand with a lot of money at stake, you actually won the hand because the opponenet doesn't get as much as he could have gotten against an average or below avg player.

I think what I should have done was raise to $50/$60 over his C-bet which was like 1/2 pot on the flop. He probably would've released then, like he wasn't a terrible player so I doubt he would chase a gutshot. Strengthening the chance of a flop fold would have been if I 3bet his 3x preflop raise to about 20 or 25, then bet hard or go all in on the flop. That would've definitely made him fold. I mean I knew his hand was marginal like mine because a 3x raise is weak at this particular game. When guys have the top tier like AJ-AK TT-AA they raise at least 15-30.

Anyway thanks for listening and your advice...this stupid hand has been permeating my every thought since Friday, but now I feel better I got it all out to people who can understand loll.

Thanks.

No matter how I word this it will sound flip. Here goes anyway: Leave your ego at home.

Fact is, you and I and everyone else get sucked out on. This is how the game is designed. If suck outs never happened the number of people playing poker would drop by ninety percent.

What you can do to help yourself is distance yourself from your game. Use the skills you have which are many, and let what happens happen.

If you know Villain made their hand on the turn or river, betting into them or calling will not change the outcome. We only have control over our chips, everything else is a series of events where we are only observers and minor participants.

Control what you can control and let the rest go.

Worrying about laying down big hands and pot controlling against fear of having to lay down hands in big pots are both signs of playing scared.

Ask yourself this question: would you feel the same way if you were playing .01/.02 game?

You need to either desensitized from the money by getting more money or use some other method to focus more on making the right decision instead of worrying about whether the pot is big/small.

Are you properly rolled to be playing 1/2? $80 buy in is quite small. In any event, who cares if you're up $100 or down $100, it really shouldn't impact you either way. Sounds like this money means a lot to you, which is a problem that no one on this forum can fix. Losing a $100 pot in 1/2 is a reasonably common occurrence, if that can put you on tilt you're not going to be a winner.

As to the hand itself, I don't like 3-betting him pre w/ QJo. I could get behind raising it the first time round or folding it the first time round, but once you limp you should just call the extra $4. Why turn it into a bluff? Do you have any indication this V is willing to fold?

On the flop, how big was his c-bet? If you raise it to $50/60 you're turning TPGK into a bluff, as you're never getting call by anything worse than your hand other than maybe a strong FD (an A or K-high flush draw has 12 outs against you) or JT (maybe JTss). I don't like the raise because you're bloating the pot OOP with a medium strength hand, when he has a lot of hands like AQ and KQ that are way ahead of you.

You have terrible discipline. Start by reading this:

http://tommyangelo.com/articles/reciprocality/

Read it slowly. Digest it. Read again. Then read it before going to the casino until you've mastered what Mr. Angelo has. If a sports team can spend hours preparing for a game, why can't you spend ~10 minutes reading an article on mental discipline?

Since you are buyin' in short, you need to play tight. A good tight starting hand chart, if there is such a thing in NLHE, is presented here by Ed Miller:
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...standards.html

If you can discipline yourself to not open with AJo & KQo in the 1st 4 seats after the big blind, you're on your way to winning long term when you are buyin' in short.

Refer to the section in Mr. Angelo's article on the section "Position Reciprocality" where he states: "When seen through the lens of reciprocality, positional advantage does not belong to the player who acts last. It belongs to the player who acts last most often."

Then study all the links posted here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...inner-1580379/

Then study all the COTMs listed here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...llsnl-1168186/

Try to go 30 days without making any of the losing plays you described in your post. Like calling with 94s when you know you're beat. You shouldn't even be calling with 96s pre & most likely not even 97s when you're short stacked.

If you can't maintain your discipline for 30 days - for me, that's ~ 120 hours at the poker table, you may want to consider giving up poker. I know I would.

You haven't begun to master the mental game of poker, until you have a situation where you have ~$300 in front of you with AA, you end up HU on the flop vs. a guy whom you put on a flush draw because of the way the betting has gone down. At best, he has AdJd on a Js7d3d board.

He bets out, you raise & he flats. The turn brings the 5s. He checks. You put him all-in, which if he calls, will give him =<~2:1 on his money.

He has 11 outs, if he has AdJd, making him a 3:1 dog. Even if he has KdJd, he is a 2.14:1 dog. He binks a diamond on the river. He was not getting the right price to call, so you've done your job.

When you can shrug that off as nothing more than one of the times you don't win in that situation & press on, you're on your way.

You're confused, sir. Getting people to fold when they have draws is not the object of the game. When people have draws, you want them to call (with unprofitable odds). You win way more money in the long run by getting people to call with their draws - yes, they will hit the draws some of the time and you will lose, but they will miss their draws more often and you will win more money than you lose over time.

By getting people to fold their draws, you win more pots, but less money.

If the object of the game was to win the most pots, then the proper strategy would be to push all in every hand. You will win far more pots than anybody else.

I shall repeat this concept because it is key. If you knew the player had a 4 out gutshot draw, the proper theoretical bet size would be the largest bet that he would call. If the villain would call a $20 bet and fold to a $21 bet, then the correct bet is $20. We want them to call.

Zuneit, thanks ALOT for those resources. I'll check them out when I get home. Yeah I can't play then for a few weeks. 30 days. It'll give me time to save up money to play again.

And Gliaf. I know what you're talking about. But when you bet all that money, and they call you down to the river, you lose everything. Why not control the pot size so that IF they call you down, you lose the least as opposed to the most? I mean...if I were to switch to that play style, one would have to be properly rolled for the stake they're playing at to withstand those inevitable beats.

Either way the info you guys have been sharing so far is very helpful.

Basically what you guys are saying so far is that the way to be a winner is not win every pot, but make the "best" decision, that is, the mathematical decision.

don´t fall into the trap of thinking you´ve mastered poker and just have tilt issues, OP

you sound like you have severe tilt issues, but judging on your thought processes, your poker game is also very undeveloped.

both issues can be fixed tho

You lose the least, at the expense of winning less also.

I agree with you 100% that you need to be properly rolled to play poker the correct way. If you're not rolled, then you will play in unprofitable ways. Minimizing loss (at the expense of minimizing profit) is one of those ways.

BTW, being properly rolled would probably also help you with your original question - avoiding getting angry when the draws catch you.

Never said I mastered it but I've always felt that if you know someone is drawing and won't give up until the river you should try and pot control instead of being greedy.

Yes severe tilt issue is an understatement.

After you solve the playing-correctly-when-you-know-their-exact-cards leak, you might want to circle back and think a bit about the limp-call-QJo angle. What I'm saying is that you might actually have two, or conceivably even three, weaknesses to conquer before you've solved NLHE.

If you have a flush draw, and your opponent bets nothing, the cost of you to make the draw is zero.

When you hit, you get what's already in the pot plus whatever your opponent is willing to call.

When you miss, you lose nothing.

To improve above scenario as the opponent, you should bet more to charge the draws and fold more when flush hits.

no, that mindset will always hold you back.

as mtgliaf said, your biggest issue is probably playing underrolled and caring for the money value of your chips too much. it is very understandable as well.

you feel like you are a halfway decent player, you see people making quite horrible mistakes on a regular basis, and you feel that you should be able to make money in that game bc you are way better than them and deserve it.

on the other hand it would suck to lose a few hundred bucks bc you could have bought something nice with that instead or treat yourself well, but now it´s gone. you want to avoid that ofc, but also don´t want to miss out on an opportunity to make some more money by playing a game you know you are superior than your competition.

this is a high risk business. if you want to win money, you have to wager money. you don´t know your opponents hole cards, you can´t put them on their exact hands, and often enough you are and will be wrong. you can´t be affected with that too much. but you are, since you are probably always thinking about the money value, and maybe got that losing mentality since you have been a losing player to date.

grow a roll. if you don´t have a roll, you must not be affected by it.

at the beginning I always used to play underrolled, and also lost often enough. also had severe tilt issues ofc. one thing I never did though, I was always aware if I felt the correct play was to ship, whether for thin value or as a bluff, I knew I had to make that move. could be the first hand or the last hand of the session, could be a 10c20c homegame, my first live cashgame in a casino or my first shots at higher stakes online.

you always have to be prepared to lose the money in front of you. as long as you did it for the right reasons, you will eventually profit.

and also, fix your game. not wanting players with draws to call is a pretty huge mindset leak. and there are lots more. preflop, postflop. back to basics, why do we bet? what are we accomplishing by betting?
and really be honest to yourself, what the **** am I doing? if you are lost in the middle of hands quite often, and I bet you are, you have to go back and start from the basics, no matter how long you have been playing.

hope that helped.

I recommend the General Gambling/Psychology forum for this leak. But this is far from your last leak, as your comment about draws show.

I just don't agree with it, and still don't. If you can lose less money in a hand than otherwise, I prefer that than "making the right decision" and losing more. Maybe if I was rich it wouldn't matter.

I think the reality is I wasted the last 5 years of my life, and should give up. It's hard to accept, I've always been stubborn and competitive, but evidently completely talentless and hopeless. Haha that's just it....i'm just dumb.

Know what my job has been the last two years? Typing numbers and letters into boxes all day long. Copying meaningless digits and letters from one place to another. Impressive yeah? No children, no girlfriend, I wish I was dead, what's the point in living if you don't reproduce? There is none. Is going off topic im signing off thanks for the resources but I think it's futile for a dumb mentally challenged individual like myself.

yo

and that is in all honesty i can give you man

first and most importantly, talk to some people personally in real life about those issues.

second and much less important, **** poker. it´s just one of your problems, but it doesnt sound like you need more. who cares if you played a hand correctly or not? who cares if you are a good poker player? you are not a good person bc of that.

Fear,
I'm 60 years old with many experiences in life. I guarantee that you can become a better poker player if you:

Stop playing right now. You can pick up the GAME later in your life after you sort out your personal self-image. You have bigger issues than poker.

Find a trained pro to help you through your life situation. Doesn't necessarily need to be a shrink or psychologist. Clergy are often a "free" resource... you give what you can afford. And you don't need to be religious. If you are unsure how to get started, ask friends for a recommendation. If that is uncomfortable, find a soup kitchen and ask for the person in charge. Explain to that person everything you told us (less the pokerz). That person "will know somebody" that can help. Additionally, volunteer at this soup kitchen. You might be amazed at the healing that you will gain simply by helping those less fortunate.

The only one that can "fix" you....is you. If you don't make the effort to get a better outlook on life, noone is going to do that for you. You are in control of your future.

Best of luck to you

Thanks man, im 26, and a complete failure at life. I don't imagine I'll live past 30. I hope you live to your 80s healthy and happy dude, peace

"my last weakness in nlhe"

This my friend, shows you have MANY weaknesses