I don’t believe I’m a degenerate however I feel when I tell ordinary people
About my gambling.... they act odd about it.

I’m almost 30, live at home with my mom and saving to buy a house however I have a really solid career and lived on my own for a while but moved back to my hometown 1.5 years back and decided to say F off to paying rent before buying a house. I also live at home as it gives me the opportunity to travel and play poker tournaments much easier than when I paid 1k a month for rent along with other expenses.

So I play live mtts, roughly 300-500 bi and really don’t have a bankroll per se but have money saved for travel/ gambling along with a safety account I’m starting to focus on building. I put a solid amount into my 401k, have a pension, pay my bills on time and have lol low cc debt if any (under 1k).

I’ve traveled to work out of town at my old office (my boss works out of old office 2.5bhrs away from me) and I feel people look at me oddly when I tell them I’m there to play a poker tourny over the weekend. My boss, I will tell I’m traveling to play poker and I feel he thinks I’m a degen. My parents think I’m an idiot and I’m wasting money etc... my friends I’m sure lol at me behind my back bc the make less than me and can’t justify punting like I do.

Meh should I stop playing poker mtts? I travel and go alone also but idk if that’s weird. I don’t think it’s weird as I have no friends that play poker. I played online prior to Black Friday.... was backed and coached by a pretty good online player. I was moving up the ranks prior to Black Friday and prolly could have gotten up to an20-50 abi if Black Friday never happened.

Basically should I stop playing poker mtts if it might slightly hinder my saving of money I guess. I’m a decent player I feel (mtts) but have pretty meh results live... as I’ve prolly played what 70-100 live mtts and maybe have 10 cashes with no Ws -and some gross late game run bad which is standard. I would say I prolly play out of my roll as I don’t have 100 buyins but I look at poker as a fun hobby that I’m prolly +ev at in mtts I play. I feel people don’t understand mtt variance so they think you are stupid/ suck if you don’t cash or bink a big mtt. Just wondering what people think here. Honestly I don’t think I’m a degen however I prolly shouldn’t tel people about gambling as openly as I do. I tend to discuss losses openly bc losing money doesn’t really bother me bc I treat gambling money as lost money as to not gamble over my
Head.

You say you've played 70-100 live MTTs at an average buyin of 300-500. Am I correctly interpreting that you've spent $21,000-$50,000 on buyins then? And approximately what is the total you've won in the 10 or so you cashed? And you've played those 70-100 live MTTs over a period of how many years?

By the way, it's a good idea to keep more careful, meticulous records - I write down every session I play and can tell you exactly how much I won in 2017, 2018 and 2019 and exactly how much I lost from 2012-2016.

Have you had any training, i.e. have you read Kill Phil, or the Harrington on Hold'Em books or whatever other books are known to be good MTT training books? Any personal coaching from a winning player? Any training video sites?

I honestly don’t know how many mtts I’ve played. I’m 30. When I was in college I may have played 3-5 bigger buy in tournies a year (200-300 dollars) which was big for me then.

I’ve crushed dailies in comparison to normal mtts (200-500 buy in range). For buy in total.... it’s tough to say. My actually # of mtts may be actually 50-70. I honestly can’t even fathom a real accurate guess to # of mtts I’ve played bc it’s been over a span of day 7-8 years and when I was in college/ lived on my own... I would play 2-3 mtts max at a stop (which I may have done 2-3 trips in a year)) if that).

I have read kill everyone. I was on crush live poker but have recently switched to tournament poker edge and try to study say 2-5 hrs a week. I took a shot at grinding 1-2 cash earlier this year but the swings were meh and I found the room I played at a little too nitty. I play at turning stone and the cash games are dry in my opinion. My few sessions in AC (borgata mainly) have been super juicy and people give much more action it seems and have deeper pockets so they gamble.

In regards to poker, again the money I lose doesn’t bother me. I feel I take shots more than the average person and normal non gamblers can’t understand the risk level I’m tolerant to.

For example this year, I can’t give exact #s but I’m ballpark around 8k down in mtts. I’ve had 2 sigh min cashes and chopped a small daily for like 1.2k. Overall, I would say I’ve also only punted like 1-2 times over maybe 20-30 mtts. I’ve also kinda ran like garbage late to mid late in mtts (kk<jj mid in an mtt, jj<aq in one of the min cashes late). Again I know this is standard mtt variance so not complaining.

Also last series I played.... fired 4 bullets in a 300 with a big guarantee. Lost AA< 55 for a minuscule pot in early
Mid stages but stuff like that crushes me mentally. Comically I feel I have run really meh in all in spots over a majority of my live mtt experience. Again I know this is standard and I guess I’m just saying mtt variance irritates me.

1) making profit is fun. Not playing poker itself.
2) mtt variance irritates your parents more than you.
3) You should care if your not making profits. You most likely have to change things or check if your actually playing correctly in every spot you can recall. you should be looking to improve your memory as well.
4) yes non gamblers can't understand why you would put yourself through this and lose money playing cards.

No but probably best to play less of them. Your better off playing cash games most of the times to make a profit. if your a profitable cash game player it will make your mom happier.

Regardless of whether or not you are a degen, I would strongly recommend the following:

1. Start keeping PERFECT track of how much you spend and lose on the game. Every buyin and cashout in a tournament OR a cash game. At any given time you should know EXACTLY how much you are up or down for the year.
2. Never stop learning. Participtae in the MTT forums on this site. Every tournament, post a spot you're not sure about.
3. Set a budget at the BEGINNING of the year. When you set that budget, hold it up in front of a mirror and say to yourself, "I don't give a rat's left front tooth if I ever see this money again." If you don't believe youself 100%, lower the budget.
4. Stop for the year once you've spent your budget, whether it's December, October, May or February.

I have to be honest with you, if you're already down 8K and it's only June, there is a tangible chance that you do have a gambling problem. Not saying that to be mean, saying that because I'm concerned - that's a lot of money.

In my opinion, the best test to see whether or not you're a degen is to stop playing. For the next 3 months, no poker. See how it affects you mentally and physically.

Hope this helped.

First off thanks for the thoughts. Is 8k actually a lot? If I have an average buy in of say 300-400..... i feel 8k is a drip honestly. Isn’t it normal sometimes to have a negative swing and not have a top 5% finish over a super small mtt sample. I’ve probably played say 25-30 mtts for the year and cashed in 3. My one only cash was in a small daily (100 dollar buy in when my abi is roughly 300-350)


I could stop playing poker but I don’t want to. I was a winning player online that was coached. I study regularly and feel more competent than the average low buy in mtt player. I save for my rtmt, make a decent amount of money, etc so I don’t know how that makes me degen.

Don’t normal people go on vacation a few times a year normally? If I’m spending 2k to play mtts at a gambling stop... I don’t see how this is bad. While normal people will pay for an experience... I’m paying money for something I enjoy that can actually produce a profit.

Jk I'm gonna PM you a few thoughts in a bit but absolutely nothing you describe is anywhere close to degen behavior. Not even in the same universe.

Believe it or not, some of us still really, really love *playing poker*.

-----

OP, you seem to care too much what other people think. Though I will say--playing in -EV games is degeneracy in its purest form (e.g. playing a hand of blackjack or playing a hand of HUNL vs. LLinusLLove are both degenerate behaviors). So studying and making sure you have an edge are important.

What if it's someone else's money?

Degeneracy, even more so. If I ever discovered someone I had invested in was making -$EV decisions with my money, I would first purge them with holy fire, and then myself, for being stupid.

Man, civilians think poker is roulette. 10 out of 70 cashes in tournaments isn't bad. I try to educate people about poker...but sometimes i just give up.

OP, I just now thought of this - how would your family be reacting if you were a golfer instead of a poker player? Seriously, 8k for a serious golfer is chicken feed - clubs, lessons, green fees, country club memberships - and there's practically ZERO chance you'll ever MAKE money playing golf.

But a lot of people think golf is a fun game that you can basically play your whole life. I'm not one of them - I prefer tennis (which is ALSO NOT a cheap hobby).

Would your family be telling you you're spending too much money on golf?

I wouldn't be thrilled about it though...I felt like hammered whale crap this year after a one for seven week and that was with the one being a win. Cash games and the sports book went well enough though, but the variance train definitely got me on the tourney endeavor (too many second bests in the stud and draw games). I just don't think I can escape a ~15% cash rate being problematic even if I felt I played well...

100% no, they would be fine if it was golf.

Btw I agree with one poster that said poker is fun to play and it’s not all about winning. If poker was purely there to make money consistently.... I’m not sure why anyone would play mtts.

Idc if you are losing and running bad in mtts... poker is still fun and enjoyable. Yes it’s more enjoyable to run deep and have a shot at a W however poker is enjoyable to me even if I’m running bad and even though I may find the early levels of a tournament tedious sometimes.

And after posting this thread I would not say I’m a degen however I feel telling normal non gamblers about mtt.... they just don’t understand. I feel everyday people don’t understand someone may cash in 1/10 to 1/8 mtts and even top notch mtters may cash less but have a higher win % which reflects better on roi. I will probably lie to people in the future as to not get negative feedback or probably brag bout a big score if any come up soon as I feel people sadly change minds when a big score occurs.

I’ve actually saved all my mtt receipts from the year so I actually have a ball park # what I’m down for the year. It’s close to what I stated early and I think I’m like 4/38 itm for the year with only 2 big cashes for the buyin (sadly both were smaller mtts) and 2 min cashes. Bad year so far but I’ve def started studying more and feel my game is high level compared to past from just study and being super nitty early in mtts and not donating in spots where live mtters don’t bluff.

Prolly

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Give your parents some money each month for rent. Don’t be a 30-yr old mooch.

Going to give an in depth reply to this when I have time, but I'll start by just saying that there is absolutely no reason to care about what people think of you and what you're doing with your money, and so many reasons not to.

I agree with giving your parents money to cover the costs of keeping you, but apart from that it is not their business.

Lots to say here and will post later

I remember Fedor Holz saying that when he told people in Vienna that he's a poker player, they immediately looked at him like he was some sort of Degen. I recently heard Foxen say that his family would look down on him playing poker until his success. My parents don't understand it whatsoever, regardless of what I say or win. To them its just Degen gambling, and their mind set is fixed on that. I'm sure this is extremely common, probably the mentality of most. And it'll take a lot to change that. Look at the book 'thinking fast and slow' specifically at 'anchoring'. I also recommend listening to the poker life podcast (joe Ingram). So many intelligent characters that I'm sure you'll be able to relate to and I'm sure it'll help give you clarity.

Living with your parents and minimising your living expenses is a great position to be in. It's only when I had children and took on a lot of bills that I realised the financial opportunity I had pre-fatherhood. Keep saving because it becomes a hell of a slower process when you've got big bills. But cover your own expenses unless your parents are wealthy enough for it not to matter. Can you play smaller buyin tournaments and get the same enjoyment?

Whether you tell people about playing poker or not should be irrelevant, as shoyld be their reaction. Do you trust your own judgement? Judge your behaviour and circumstances for yourself, without the cloud of public opinion. Public opinion is for sheep.

If I had a mind-map of my life, 'family/home' would be in the centre. The secondary things coming off of that would be work (a means of sustaining my family/home), gym/diet (a means of sustaining my health), poker study/play (a hobby that I feel is massively life EV, providing it remains a hobby and doesn't become an addiction), and another branch may be time outdoors (walking the dogs, at the beach, at the park, etc).
Mind mapping helps me put things into perspective and keep my life in order. It also helps me live the life that makes me happy, completely irrelevant of what others think.

What would be at the centre of your mind-map? If its poker then you are likely destined to be unhappy.

Jason Koon said something along the lines of: why be so bothered about making it at poker? You should be concerned with living the life you want and if you make it at poker, it shouldn't make a great deal of difference. Lots of top players have said things along these line. Riches and poker success isn't in itself fulfilling.

Do you want a partner, and children?

I agree. During the time I lived with my mother and stepfather, I paid rent as did my brother who also lived with them for a time.

To a Non-poker playing "normal person" blowing 500 dollars ( possibly a whole weeks paycheck for some of the younger people, almost a months rent for some) on a gambling game is the definition of degen.

When I was playing 2-5 hold em and 5-5 plo, and would sometimes lose 2-3k or so in a night people would think I was a degen losing all his money who got lucky once.

Now I play higher stakes, and sometimes I have days where I lose between 10-20k ( 20 highest this year) and I just don't really talk to non-poker players anymore, and nobody knows unless my mom, grandpa, or girl ask. And they're used to it now, they know I can say lost 14k , shrug it off, and I'm really not bothered by it, and they know I come out on top at the end of the year, every year, by a reasonable amount, it doesn't bother them, because it doesn't bother me, But I can't imagine if my old friends who live in a different world now would look at me if they asked and I told them I lose 15k in 8 hours of a card game. They used to look at me like I needed help if I lost 300 dollars. eventually at a certain level the majority of people around you are used to knowing how the swings go, or are poker players themselves.

Are you a degen? maybe, I think most of that depends on if you are winning or not, and if you are losing disposable income that you could spend on a vacation or whatever and not be hurt, if you are a losing player.

Regardless of if you are a degen or not, 99% of non poker playing " normal people" are going to see you as a stone cold degen, who has to live with his parents because he lost all his savings, and loses all his income gambling, so he can't afford rent. When you win they will cry lucky, when you lose they will claim degen who needs to quit while you're up before you lose it all.

You get used to it.

On 1 1-10 scale of Degen's, you are like a 1.6.

I mean, this is laughable.

You save money. You have 401k, you are working to owning your own home, you keep job and you are debt free.

You like poker has a hobby, and probably loss less a year (much less in expected value), then if you were an average golfer.

You don't go to these tournaments, bust, then take $10k to the blackjack table.

You are so low on Degen scale, it is incredible. I'm pretty degenerate and consider myself like a 4.

Go to a couple of GA meetings and see what real Degen looks like.

And I agree, throw your parents a couple of bucks! Don't be 30 year old mooch!

Yea, crashing for a few months is ok. It's family afterall, but I garuntee you if you had your own place and weren't living at your parents at 30 with a well paying job they wouldn't think you're a degenerate. Cause right now to the outsider, it looks like you spend all your job money on poker and you're losing to the point where you have to stay at their house rent free.

Tbh, you just might not be that good of player. Subsidize your income (poker income) by playing some 1-2 or 2-5 . Much more sustainable.

Lol yea I’m not saying I’m good or anything. I play tournies though and feel
The variance has been a little brutal for me in the live game. Example deepest run in a small mtt a year back ak<aq and Villian goes to win tourny for like 40
Buyins and I get 4 at a final table. Last cash where tourny has 110k up top for a 300, I think I lost aq<a6 in the money lol. Standard poker not complaining but it’s hard to win an mtt if you don’t win these trivial
Spots.

I’ve played maybe 50 mtts this year live, cash in maybe 5 and all scores pathetically small (only too 3 was a lol daily for just under a k lmao)I’ve won online and was grinding up stakes in a stable and coached by a bossy online player until Black Friday happened.