http://cubeia.com/run-it-twice/

When is the next release? This will be a cool feature. No American sites use this right now.

Rake wise, this seems bad for the players and good for the site.

It depends how much rake they charge to run it twice

Offering this without charging any extra rake would probably be the best thing for Global.

I will still be running it once. I like when fish get's lucky. They remember it and they come back. Running it twice will make it super hard for fish to actually win sometimes. But I guess nothing wrong if they going to offer this feature.

Obviously charging more rake for this would be dumb. I'm saying it should be less than current rake, because chop pots will occur more often and drain everyone quicker.

I'm running it once.

Not sure why you say that. If the rake is the same then people won’t be drained quicker. The winning players will win the same amount and the losing players will lose the same amount since RIT has no effect on EV. If you just mean it won’t take as long for the effect of rake to become apparent, then that’s true, but the effect of rake is the same.

Losing players have less of a chance to win and winning players have less of a chance to lose, but that’s true with RIT with or without rake.

Current rake should be less than current rake, IMO.

I am confused on your logic. Your pot share in EV will remain the same. You just segment the pot into several smaller pots to achieve the 'long run' faster. If you get all-in for a $100 pot 10x with 70% equity or $50 pot 20x with 70% equity makes no difference. Your pot share will continue to be $700 on average. all running it twice does is reduce variance. If they charge a fee for running it twice then there would be reason to avoid it.

Theoretically all true. But we don't live in a theoretical world.

Let's say there is $50 in our eco system.

Player Fish has deposited $25 and Player Shark has deposited $25.

Player Fish wins 28% of the pots, and Player Shark wins 68% of the pots. And they split 4% of the pots. Each pot is raked equally.

Each pot they play is for $1, how many pots does it take for Shark to bleed fish dry? How much rake will be paid over time for Shark to bleed Fish dry? This is a simple math equation to find out this number.

But let's split more pots.

Player Fish wins 18% of the pots and Player Shark wins 58% of the pots. And they split 24% of the pots. Each pot is raked equally (and this is the key)

Each pot they play is for $1, how many pots does it take for Shark to bleed fish dry? How much rake will be paid over time for Shark to bleed Fish dry? This is a simple math equation to find out this number. AND you will find because there were more split pots that were also raked equally, more rake was paid. But each of these has eventually the same outcome, Shark wins, Fish loses.

This has long been my argument about "crooked" RNG sites. I don't want to debate this topic here, we have another thread for that, but my point has always been and still is, that a crooked site doesn't want one player to win big and another to lose big. Over time, the winner withdraws and buys other stuff, the loser quits playing.

No, a smart crooked site would have more split pots, thus ensuring more time to rake the money that is on the site. Which is why I have often said, if a site wanted to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they are legit with their RNG, they would NOT rake split pots. Because the only winner in a split pot is the house.

If you think the equation is simple, please do it. I don’t know how to calculate the expected number of steps to reach a point in a weighted random walk.

I do know how to do a simulation, which I’ll do in a bit, though, and I think you have it backwards. More chopped pots means less variance, which means both that the fish has a lesser chance of winning over the short run, and that it will take less hands for him to bust on average. The site does not collect more rake in this oversimplified example, it collects less.

RIT is good for winning players, bad for fish and doesn’t increase rake.

So, for your examples, splayaa, I got that the expected number of pots played is 125 both times, and the fish never busted the shark out of 10,000,000 $25 starting bankrolls in either case. There is no apparent difference between the two examples. No difference is seen because you gave the shark an insurmountable edge. A better example would be one where the fish busts the shark sometimes.

If you play poker, what is your goal? To win. And we know variance in the short term is involved. so what is your next goal? To reach the long term quicker. All RIT does is reach the long term faster. Don't like RIT? Just deselect the option.

Perhaps what we have learned here is I am bad at creating scenarios to explain points. So I will just go the easier route.

I also agree, if you don't like run it twice, turn it off. I personally am not for or against it, more just pointing out why I see that someone could be against it.

If there is a run it twice option, more pots will be split. This is obvious.

Split pots bring in the same amount of rake to the site as non-split pots. Again, obvious.

Split pots bring less winnings to the winning player. Again, obvious.

So therefore, split pots increase rake, decrease profit. Again, seems obvious.

Perhaps I have missed something, feel free to correct where I am obviously wrong.

This is where you are misunderstanding the concept. They don't bring less winnings but rather less variance (in the case of RIT).

If you win a pot in which you got all-in with 80% equity and then your opponent wins the same size pot a few hands later where they got all-in with 80% equity - wouldn't this be the same as what you are describing as split pot, yet with double the rake? But that is not the case. They are 2 different pots.

Running it twice allows for players to get to the long run nearly twice as fast. I say nearly as there are some removal effects in the run outs.

I hate running it more than once and have never and will never do it.

This is gambling, ffs, someone needs to feel pain. Go play O8 or something if you want to split pots. Running it multiple times is so awful in live games; it takes a slow ass form of gambling and makes it EVEN SLOWER.

Gamblers being scared of variance, smh ...

With that being said, I don't mind too hard if it's introduced to Global, as you can always simply deselect the option, but it still seems contrary to the spirit of gambling.

I am not going to pretend that I am smart enough to know more than some of you math wizz's, but if I were running a poker site, I would want people to run it twice...

Hypothetical situation:
player 1 vs player 2 put their entire $100 bankroll on the line
both players go all in and run it twice every time for 10 hands
They chop all 10 pots
Neither player wins but the house just made $50.

Where as, if player goes all in on the first hand and runs it once, one player doubles up, the house takes $5 and the player that lost the hand leaves.

And yes, I understand that this hypothetical situation would likely never happen

My point is, this is what you want if you own a poker a site. You don't want people losing money unless its to the rake.


This just seems like a way to take more money out of the poker economy. It seems fairly simple to me but again, most of you are probably a lot smarter than me. Actually, now that I think about it, I am talking to guys that play on Global so that may not be true

I think it’s a fun option. Don’t like it don’t use it. That simple

I didn't even think of that. Thanks man!

I like this option as well. For those that don't, turn off the feature

I'm old fashioned and won't use it. Someone has to pay in full, plus tilting is good for the game.

I have posited the question regarding rake in the Science Math and Philosophy subforum. No guarantee on any response, but if they do answer, it will be correct.

I am leaning towards:

Rake is already paid, and less variance is good.

Confirmed. Once you bet, you have paid the rake. Running it twice is just less variance, which is good.

If the optional feature happens, I will enable it.

VIP players love the option to Run It Twice.

I have never been called a "VIP" player. I sort of like it xD