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Old 05-25-2017, 06:03 PM   #126
PTS1
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Taken from PokerNews is this quote:

"Our unique and patented Sweepstakes model offer players something different without straying too far from traditional poker," Escalante said.

He is clearly stating this is something different from traditional poker but close to traditional poker. The part that is close to traditional poker is the betting and the voluntarily exit of participants. He clearly calls this a Sweepstakes Model. And Sweepstakes Model is not referring to the currency used to play as currency has no bearing the in the laws of the US government when it comes to gambling if real winnings are being produced from what it classifies as gambling.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:15 PM   #127
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

PT you analyzed 500 hands to base your conclusion?
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:21 PM   #128
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTS1 View Post
Taken from PokerNews is this quote:

"Our unique and patented Sweepstakes model offer players something different without straying too far from traditional poker," Escalante said.

He is clearly stating this is something different from traditional poker but close to traditional poker. The part that is close to traditional poker is the betting and the voluntarily exit of participants. He clearly calls this a Sweepstakes Model. And Sweepstakes Model is not referring to the currency used to play as currency has no bearing the in the laws of the US government when it comes to gambling if real winnings are being produced from what it classifies as gambling.
No, not necessarily.

The entire model is one on sweepstakes, their words. If you take that into account for a moment, you are not entering into a poker tournament with actual cash. That would mean that the game does not stray far from traditional poker. Traditional poker in that you purchase your chips. Traditional poker you spend $5 to enter a $5 game with a 200GTD. Their model is you spend sweeps money or gold coins, neither of which have a value outside of the game, to play. The 'buyin' currency has zero value anywhere but on Global Poker's site. That is what makes it a sweepstakes model. The fact that it is a one for one exchange is of no bearing.

The same passage can be used to make an argument on either side of the discussion. I still yield to the filings with the regulatory agencies.

There is no argument that the verbiage and model is used to circumvent US law.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:39 PM   #129
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Rutledge; As I stated earlier, I am not here to debate, I am only presenting relevant information so individuals can come to their own conclusions. The analysis of the original 500 hands is what lead me to realize there was enough statistical abnormality to investigate the company practices further. It is during these investigations where we uncovered exactly what type of model they were running. We know enough now to realize analyzing more hands is irrelevant as they are not running a traditional poker model.

Global Poker has a legitimate Sweepstakes business. But that is exactly what it is and not a traditional poker room. They are not running a real cash poker room, but there is nothing wrong with that, it is just people need to know exactly the game they are playing.

No one really reads the terms of use or Sweeps rules, but when you do, you can see this is not actually a poker room for real money. They are running a real poker room for Gold coins and as such they can promote themselves as having a real poker room; however, they can not and do not promote a real cash money poker room. They only promote you can win real money through sweeps cash in sweeps cash games which are sweepstakes. Yes it can be consider a deception, but they are not doing anything illegal that we have found.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:49 PM   #130
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Still not sure if this is just a very elaborate troll.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:52 PM   #131
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

To comply with US Federal law, the game has to be an actual sweepstakes. As stated, currency has absolutely no bearing whatsoever, in the eyes of the law.

Your confusion is what the model is exactly. They want you to believe that classifying the currency as sweepstakes cash is how they get around the law; however, they are not getting around any law, because they are fully complying with the law by offering a sweepstakes game with a chance for actual participants to influence the winner of the contest. Do not get caught up in the currency used as it has not bearing is regards to the law. Focus on the game.

Saying the game varies from traditional poker by the currency used to enter the game has absolutely no bearing on the actual game itself. The actual game itself is a sweepstakes game with variants of poker entered into the equation allowing participants to potentially affect the outcome of the contest through their play. This is the model they use. It is close to traditional poker, but it is not exactly traditional poker because the winner was chosen at random by the sweepstakes; however, they still have to be in the contest to win.

This debate should only focus on the game and model they are using and nothing else. Currency has no relevancy at all. You also need an understanding of the US law to understand fully how they are making this model work legally.
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Old 05-25-2017, 07:07 PM   #132
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

That is not correct. WPT functions inside the US and awards seats to live tournaments. If your argument was correct, they would have been shut down. Zynga offers poker, as do other sites. The 'currency' used has a lot to do with it. You purchase a monthly membership on WPT and win cash outright or a seat to a circuit event. They use a sweepstakes model WITH an RNG and shuffling algorithm.

The precedence has been set and it is used inside the US.
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Old 05-25-2017, 07:29 PM   #133
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

a dewd; as I stated, not looking to debate but please stop putting out false information.

The information is correct concerning the sweepstakes. WPT offers a completely different legal US model and can not be in any way compared to the model of Global Poker. Global Poker does offer poker just as other sites do, but they do not offer real money cash game poker. WPT does not offer real money poker games as well.

The currency has no relation in the eyes of the US law. That part is a fact, so please stop using that as your argument. It is all about the manner of the game. WPT offers no direct buy-in games for real money, which is against the law. The WPT model in no way compares, according to US law, to the model of Global Poker. When you play WPT you know exactly what you are playing. When you play Global Poker you should know exactly what you are playing. Let people collect the information and decide for themselves.
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:11 PM   #134
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

No, I am not putting out any false information. From the WPT site:

WPT Enterprises, Inc., is the creator of the World Poker Tour (WPT) – the premier name in internationally televised gaming and entertainment with brand presence in land-based tournaments, television, online and mobile. Leading innovation in the sport of poker since 2002, WPT ignited the global poker boom with the creation of a unique television show based on a series of high-stakes poker tournaments. WPT has broadcast globally in more than 150 countries and territories, and is currently producing its 15th season, which will air on FSN in the United States. Season XIV of WPT is sponsored by ClubWPT.com, a unique online membership site that offers inside access to the WPT, as well as a sweepstakes-based poker club available in 35 states across the United States. ClubWPT.com also sponsors Season 3 of the WPT Alpha8 series of super-high roller poker tournaments which is currently in production and which will air on FOX Sports 1 in the United States. WPT participates in strategic brand license, partnership, and sponsorship opportunities. WPT Enterprises, Inc. is a subsidiary of Ourgame International Holdings, Ltd.

How do I know The Club is fair?
We have built our site from the ground up to provide our players with the safest and highest quality site on which to play and poker. Further, we are highly confident that the systems used for Random Number Generation (RNG) and the card-shuffling algorithm that utilizes those numbers are the most advanced and reliable within the online blackjack and poker community. It would be difficult to find better in ANY application. - See more at: [url]https://www.clubwpt.com/support/faq.php#sthash.Yzq84FYj.dpuf[/url}


They say they are a sweepstakes site, use an RNG, and pay out in cash prizes. That is there words, not mine. Global offers no direct buyin access to their games for cash or any recognizable currency, claim they use a sweepstakes model, and pay out cash, like WPT.

I agree with collecting information and deciding for your self. I also put a lot of weight into the risk of the undersigned in the submission of documents to a regulatory body.

There are no direct federal laws that make online poker illegal. As far as the UIGEA...

The Appellate court noted that “UIGEA does not make any gambling activity illegal,” but rather, the definition of “unlawful Internet gambling” references federal and state laws related to gambling. Therefore “to the extent that [there is] a vagueness problem, it is not with the Act, but rather with the underlying state law”

The UIGEA makes it illegal for banking institutions to send or receive monies that are related to gambling, largely due to the probability of laundering, aka failure to pay taxes. The Act, nor any other, makes online poker illegal.

Please explain the difference between WPT and Global's submitted business model and what specific US law is being broken.
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:31 PM   #135
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

A dewd, Go back and read my post and tell me where I said they were breaking the law. I never did
Go see where I compared them to WPT. I never did
Go see where I misinterpreted the law, because I clearly stated the law was aimed at financial institutions.
But really just show me where Global Poker says they offer real US money cash poker.
This discussion is about whether the sweeps cash poker at Global Poker is a real poker game or indeed a sweepstakes game. The discussion is not about corporate integrity, PayPal integrity, WPT, or any of the other items you want to throw out there to divergent everyone's attention from the real discussion. So please stop diverting to other topics and stick to the real discussion


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Old 05-25-2017, 08:41 PM   #136
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

One last item to clear up. US law constitutes anything of value wager or bet is considered gambling. Because sweeps cash has value it is considered a direct wager. Global Poker calling it sweeps cash and giving it away with the purchase of Gold coins does not change the fact that sweeps cash is indeed a currency with value in the eyes of the law


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Old 05-25-2017, 09:37 PM   #137
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemares View Post
Still not sure if this is just a very elaborate troll.
Many of us are saying the exact same thing as he is but he explained it way better. This is not poker. The sweepstakes model they are using makes it look and feel like poker but it isn't the same.
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Old 05-25-2017, 10:45 PM   #138
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
The entire model is one on sweepstakes, their words. If you take that into account for a moment, you are not entering into a poker tournament with actual cash. That would mean that the game does not stray far from traditional poker. Traditional poker in that you purchase your chips. Traditional poker you spend $5 to enter a $5 game with a 200GTD. Their model is you spend sweeps money or gold coins, neither of which have a value outside of the game, to play. The 'buyin' currency has zero value anywhere but on Global Poker's site. That is what makes it a sweepstakes model. The fact that it is a one for one exchange is of no bearing.

Just to clear this up for everyone, this is what Global Poker wants you to believe and it is their deception. The sweeps cash has real value because you can exchange if for real US money which by US definition is gambling. While this in itself is not illegal in all states, processing payments for gambling is illegal according to the US laws. Processing payments for sweepstakes prizes is not considered illegal is the US.

The contest itself has to meet the guidelines of a legal US sweepstakes contest in order for payments processors to legally pay out for prizes.

Global Poker is meeting all of the legal requirements for a sweepstakes. They are doing nothing illegal. What they are not making clear to participants is that participants are actually playing a sweepstakes contest and not a real poker game.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:43 AM   #139
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTS1 View Post
Just to clear this up for everyone, this is what Global Poker wants you to believe and it is their deception. The sweeps cash has real value because you can exchange if for real US money which by US definition is gambling. While this in itself is not illegal in all states, processing payments for gambling is illegal according to the US laws. Processing payments for sweepstakes prizes is not considered illegal is the US.

The contest itself has to meet the guidelines of a legal US sweepstakes contest in order for payments processors to legally pay out for prizes.

Global Poker is meeting all of the legal requirements for a sweepstakes. They are doing nothing illegal. What they are not making clear to participants is that participants are actually playing a sweepstakes contest and not a real poker game.
"Just to clear this up", you base all your conclusions on a hideously small sample hand base and lots of personal assumptions to support your conclusion.

Gambling is a game of chance, as defined by US law. Poker and fantasy sports have been determined to be games of skill and are not considered gambling. You adhere to your understanding of the term 'sweepstakes' as proof of your conclusion. ClubWPT.com spells out in their T&C that they are in fact a sweepstakes model, you purchase tournament points, their currency, with your membership, play real poker as explained by their RNG section, accept US bank cards as a means of payment, and award cash in exchange for tournament points you won in their games. That is pretty much the exact same thing the legally binding prospectus says for VGW and evidenced on their site.

Global's T&C is nowhere near as clear as ClubWPT's is and should be made more specific. I have no knowledge of the process to get and be certified in terms of an RNG. It should be somewhere in the T&C that they are working on having this done, if that is the case. Kim has stated that it was currently being worked on and I'll give the benefit of the doubt, possibly out of naivety on the whole process.

I will take the official legally binding documentation sent in to the government agencies as being factual. I will also accept the idea that the company has legal counsel and they explored what needs to be done to enter the US market in addition to explaining the downside to signing off on a prospectus and audit that is not factually true.

I could be completely wrong in trusting the documentation, no question. I also have not diverted from the main topic of the thread. I have used outside examples and proof as to explain my understanding of what they are doing. There is also a far more likelihood that your conclusion garnered from a tiny hand sample and perceived conclusion of what is a 'sweepstakes' game is far less likely than management signing fraudulent documents. You make de facto statements that are opinions, not facts. Corporate integrity is the basis that my belief is accurate. They are not unrelated aspects. I can not provide proof of my viewpoint, either; but, I can read legal documents fluently. If their integrity is true, then the assumptions that it isn't real poker are false.

So as you said, go back to discussing proof that they are not providing real poker. A small amount of hands analyzed and an isolated understanding of what is a 'sweepstakes' game is hardly evidence of it being real or not. What proof do you have that they are not offering real poker? Prior supporting points you claimed can be explained by either their prospectus or competition in the industry.

I have a genuine interest in knowing whether or not they are real as it would be a very good investment to buy shares. I have looked at their prospectus as an investor and their site, in conjunction with US law and precedence, seems to support what they have said. I am not a blanket supporter of the site and have been publicly critical of some things. Although, the ridiculous ROI I have since joining this past winter definitely has me cheering it on. If it was pure random sweepstakes, I should have far less winnings. I don't have any substantial dollar wins like some people, but I do have dozens for $50-100.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:44 AM   #140
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

How are the cards not randomly generated? Show some evidence. The rep has said they are, they are just working on getting the license. Until shown otherwise I'll believe the site instead of a bunch of rigtards who won't take my heads up challenge that is profitable for them based on their assumptions.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:22 AM   #141
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Other users of the Cubeia software use the Mersenne Twister RNG algorithm and Fisher-Yates shuffler, at least that is the claim. I would not have the faintest idea of how to go about proving it one way or the other, nor much understanding of either.

I have no clue whether it is an option that can be turned off or on, how it is enabled, etc...

The software is also scale-able to include a reward/point system.
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:11 AM   #142
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

At this point I have to take them at their word until either the company auditing their RNG comes back and says it's not correct or someone puts together a correct sample size to prove otherwise. Neither has happened yet and Global hasn't done anything shady yet. If anything, the facts that dewd has posted regarding their investors and upper management should be enough for now.

IwishIwas is a troll at this point. Sent me a PM telling me how he was a professional HU player for years and doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to understand the HU challenge I presented him with. He also "bragged" about how much he pays in property taxes lolololololololololol.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:50 PM   #143
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

If what PT s saying is true, and as I have stated before, you could just raise, raise, raise, get tons of fold equity and have an equal shot of winning the hand at showdown. You could be printing money, rather than letting everybody know about the loophole. Complete BS, most likely just somebody that lost money on the site and has to look for somebody to blame.
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Old 05-26-2017, 01:25 PM   #144
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTS1 View Post
A dewd, Go back and read my post and tell me where I said they were breaking the law. I never did
Go see where I compared them to WPT. I never did
Go see where I misinterpreted the law, because I clearly stated the law was aimed at financial institutions.
But really just show me where Global Poker says they offer real US money cash poker.
This discussion is about whether the sweeps cash poker at Global Poker is a real poker game or indeed a sweepstakes game. The discussion is not about corporate integrity, PayPal integrity, WPT, or any of the other items you want to throw out there to divert everyone's attention from the real discussion. So please stop diverting to other topics and stick to the real discussion


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a dewd; this is simple. Show me where on their website or promotional pieces where they are claiming they are offering real US money cash poker. I have given examples from their Terms of Use and Sweeps Rules showing they are offering a sweepstakes contest. We both know this to be true.

You are offering a lot of unrelated information and opinion in hopes of building confidence in Global Poker. I myself have never questioned their business plan or their ability to be successful in their business endeavors. I have never said do not play at Global Poker. And I never said that you could not produce winnings from playing at Global Poker. I am not trying to tear down the company in any way, I only want players to know exactly the game they are playing, because Global Poker is not clearly making it clear to participants the sweepstakes contest they are playing.
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Old 05-26-2017, 02:06 PM   #145
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
Look at page 94 on this link

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2016010...wkvqbww4kk.pdf

It explains that the use of the term 'sweepstakes' pertains to the fact that there is no direct purchase of chips into the games. The games are also defined as games of skill vs games of chance, so that would suggest that it isn't a sweepstakes type determination of who wins a hand as long as you stay in it to the end. The theory is unless you have enough digital currency, there is no entry. It is semantics, but it covers the UIGEA issues.

There is a discussion regarding PayPal in the 60s pages of the business plan, I believe. VGW, aka Global Poker, provided a due diligence package to PayPal and after PayPal's legal counsel reviewed it, it approved transactions in and out of Global. VGW also provided a $250,000USD bond to PayPal.

I also emailed Cubeia and asked questions re their software and specifically the RNG aspect of it. I'll copy and paste their reply when I get it back.
This link is not working for me, but I did find their prospectus from January 2016 and the information in there does not at all support your viewpoint. Please provide the correct prospectus outlining your claim.

BTW on page 95 of the 2016 prospectus, paragraph 67, they clearly state the sweepstakes version of the game being one of a pre-determined winner.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:19 PM   #146
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

QUOTE=GlobalPokerCSadmin;51642282]We are a new pokersite that uses the Sweepstakes model. Play our cashgames and our tournaments, and cashout your winnings thru PayPal.

You purchase our Goldcoin packages and we will give you the same amount in free $weeps, which you use at our cash game tables. We only just started about 2 months ago, but already over 1000 players cashed out over $120,000 in winnings.

This weekend we are running a superbowl $10,000 freeroll, with the only requirement that you have to play 300 flops at minimum $0.05/0.10 limit.

We will be here and answer any of your questions and to help you in any way we can.

Edit/MH: See Sub-Forum at https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/252/global-poker/[/QUOTE]

This is the first post in the main internet poker forum. Sounds to me like they are trying to pass it off as real poker to me.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:40 PM   #147
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTS1 View Post
This link is not working for me, but I did find their prospectus from January 2016 and the information in there does not at all support your viewpoint. Please provide the correct prospectus outlining your claim.

BTW on page 95 of the 2016 prospectus, paragraph 67, they clearly state the sweepstakes version of the game being one of a pre-determined winner.
I don't know why the link isn't working, says it is updating.

For the record, Global Poker didn't exist until late 2016. Prior to that it was Chumba Casino only and that is clearly a sweepstakes game. They discuss it ad nauseum in their docs, too. Any formal document pre-December 2016 would not reflect any GlobalPoker/poker conversation. The initial link I posted had the discussion of poker around page 60-65 and 94. It stated very clearly that it was a skill based game. That prospectus was from the 1st quarter of this calendar year.

Unless there is the belief that VGW licensed the software and then abrogated the RNG and shuffler, you can see from the FAQ page of Nitrogen poker

https://nitrogensports.eu/poker/faq

that halfway down is:

How can you ensure the integrity of your games?

At Nitrogen Sports, we use a standard Mersenne Twister for RNG and Fisher-Yates shuffle for shuffling cards prior to each deal.


They use the Cubeia software and they have an RNG/shuffler embedded in it. If that is accurate, that would answer the random awarding the winner of a hand or it being totally on how the hand is played. Thrill Poker is another licensee with the same claim.

I've never seen the error message when you click on the link. This is just a guess, but maybe they are in the quiet period and trading will commence in the imminent future.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:49 PM   #148
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

http://www.cubeia.com/global-poker-live/

Shows they are using a sweepstakes model. I don't think cubeia does the bankend or else the RNG would of been certified already.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:03 PM   #149
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

I doubt they do backend work. It is probably just licensing the software and that is it.

Since other sites using Cubeia software have the RNG/shuffler, is it possible that it is something provided by the licensee or is it embedded in the software. I'd like to think it is embedded.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:08 PM   #150
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re: Global Poker - RNG Discussion

The patent they claim they are waiting on was a method of keeping 2 virtual currencies seperate so there is definitely some options for the backend
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