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06-06-2018 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerONETWO
lol @ the agnoostic

my man has some serious issues

quite literally nothing he's writing about me is accurate

It also seems reasonable to inquire about selling action to live events, given that I've had much success at Global and elsewhere back in the day. But, if it makes you feel better, nobody bit.

bahahaha I just read "the math was a joke you fool". Quite the elaborate troll! Nobody believes that, buddy, not even you.


P12: I have no issue with you other then the 69k you have in profit anybody can see is not what you actually made. It is a number and nothing more. So don't act like you are up 69k cause you know that simply is not true.

You also where asking for stakes not implying selling pieces . Last but not least for the volume you put in 69k is nothing it's a small portion of winnings in an otherwise immense world . So quit the charade . Just cause you have some fan boys and obviously that makes you feel superior on a site that isn't even real poker. I've played with you and quite honestly you would get destroyed in even the $235.00 buy in daily events . Which you probably would need a stake for.
06-06-2018 , 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by willwes23
.....Have you ever been at a live cash table and see the calling station walk away with 20 buyin's? For a live $1-$3 NL game that would be $6,000. If anyone says they've ever seen this happen, they are full of it.....
If you have never seen that, you haven't played a lot of live poker.
06-06-2018 , 06:54 PM
No kidding. Guy that's known for being average Asian calling station walked away with a 11k stack (500 buy in) at my local 3/5 game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a dewd
If you have never seen that, you haven't played a lot of live poker.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
06-06-2018 , 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
Just cause you have some fan boys and obviously that makes you feel superior on a site that isn't even real poker.

Call it fake poker all you want. The cash Global gives me is real and that’s all that matters.
06-06-2018 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick619
Call it fake poker all you want. The cash Global gives me is real and that’s all that matters.

Never denied people are making money . I 100% think that if you are making money at Global That's awesome. What I am saying is the top 1% of Global SNG and MTT players would get destroyed in a live environment and also in a larger site ( Poker Stars ) player pool.

Obviously this is my opinion and people can agree or disagree . Either way if you have found ways to exploit Global or are just simply luckier then the average guy by all means take as much money as possible . But don't get things twisted and start believing that because you have mastered a sweepstakes modeled video poker slot machine that you can all of a sudden sit down and be a poker superstar.


Also Poker12 you have been consistent and have an ever improving graph over a very small 10-11 month period of time . I give you props for that . But lets see what that graph looks like in 2-3 years . You certainly are on the right path but let's face facts. There have been 10-20 other players who have come and gone already this year whom had uprising graphs and decent profit and within 30 days where gone never to be heard from again . Why? Cause the Global variance caught up to them and drove them insane .


As I stated before I have witnessed cheating going on from the source . You would be amazed or possibly not at the ease of sitting multiple players in Cash games and SNG's . Sharing of card information and exploiting pots . This goes on at all sites so it is nothing new but Global has 0% chance of stopping any of it due to no HH and the web browser based software .

Last edited by The Agnoostic; 06-06-2018 at 08:50 PM.
06-06-2018 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
But don't get things twisted and start believing that because you have mastered a sweepstakes modeled video poker slot machine that you can all of a sudden sit down and be a poker superstar.

I don’t think I’m a poker superstar. I’ll just keep cashing checks and taking care of my family. I’ll leave the “I wanna be a poker superstar. Respect me!” nonsense to those with self-esteem problems.
06-06-2018 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
There have been 10-20 other players who have come and gone already this year whom had uprising graphs and decent profit and within 30 days where gone never to be heard from again . Why? Cause the Global variance caught up to them and drove them insane .
I've kept tabs on this thread for a while, and haven't seen any of these posters you mentioned... care to share who these players were?
06-06-2018 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riggity
I've kept tabs on this thread for a while, and haven't seen any of these posters you mentioned... care to share who these players were?


I have shared names and they where quickly deleted . Which is fine . 2+2 Mods filter my posts and quickly delete them as they see fit. Not complaining , Rules are Rules .
06-06-2018 , 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick619
I don’t think I’m a poker superstar. I’ll just keep cashing checks and taking care of my family. I’ll leave the “I wanna be a poker superstar. Respect me!” nonsense to those with self-esteem problems.

If my family depended on the winnings from Global Poker I would noose myself.
06-06-2018 , 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
If my family depended on the winnings from Global Poker I would noose myself.

My family doesn’t. Global funds are icing on the cake. Serving our country for 20 years takes care of my family.
06-06-2018 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick619
My family doesn’t. Global funds are icing on the cake. Serving our country for 20 years takes care of my family.

Thank you for your service. I myself am also a veteran .

Any icing is good icing
06-06-2018 , 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by willwes23
I was simply addressing what you said:
"If I were to rig a site to make more money, I'd want to keep pots small and make sure money changed hands more often, generating more rake. Increasing the number of big pots sounds like a recipe for less rake to me."
No, you were addressing one part of my post, out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwes23
If you were to rig a site to make more money, superusing accounts would dwarf any rake consideration.
OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwes23
I'm not sure why people discuss the RNG/Algorithm rigging possibilities without regard for the much more lucrative prospect of just flat out cheating players.
There are many ways people could be cheated out of their money. This thread is about one of them. The subject is right there in the thread title. Sometimes people choose to discuss one particular issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwes23
How is this something altogether different? Rigging a site to make more money, correct?
Someone was talking about how the site could make more money by rigging the RNG in a certain way. I replied, explaining how his rig would make the site less money, not more, and how a site would actually rig the RNG to make more money - because that's what he was talking about, rigging the RNG. You reply weeks later to my post, telling my my logic is flawed because the site could make more money with superusers. Um, great...I wasn't claiming a rigged RNG was the most lucrative way for the site to cheat. My post wasn't trying to illustrate the way a site could make the most money - it was simply replying to a specific post, and addressing the poster's claim.
06-07-2018 , 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
Never denied people are making money . I 100% think that if you are making money at Global That's awesome. What I am saying is the top 1% of Global SNG and MTT players would get destroyed in a live environment and also in a larger site ( Poker Stars ) player pool.

Obviously this is my opinion and people can agree or disagree . Either way if you have found ways to exploit Global or are just simply luckier then the average guy by all means take as much money as possible . But don't get things twisted and start believing that because you have mastered a sweepstakes modeled video poker slot machine that you can all of a sudden sit down and be a poker superstar.


Also Poker12 you have been consistent and have an ever improving graph over a very small 10-11 month period of time . I give you props for that . But lets see what that graph looks like in 2-3 years . You certainly are on the right path but let's face facts. There have been 10-20 other players who have come and gone already this year whom had uprising graphs and decent profit and within 30 days where gone never to be heard from again . Why? Cause the Global variance caught up to them and drove them insane .


As I stated before I have witnessed cheating going on from the source . You would be amazed or possibly not at the ease of sitting multiple players in Cash games and SNG's . Sharing of card information and exploiting pots . This goes on at all sites so it is nothing new but Global has 0% chance of stopping any of it due to no HH and the web browser based software .
"The top 1% SNG players on global would get crushed in a live environmemt", you cant be serious. Why are you arguing with poker 12, his results are impressive, maybe your just dealing with variance? Maybe try playing on global again? Everyone agrees with you about global having issues, your not wrong about that, but I think your very emotional because your down money and your looking for something to blame because of that, maybe that is not what it is, maybe you are a good player that is just dealing with variance and the only way you can explain that is with the rng being a "sweepstakes model", I think you should give global another try, and things still don't go your way, maybe, just maybe, start looking at your game, I play live almost everyday, and I always see players that think they are better than they really are, not saying this is you, just saying its something i see in A TON of losing players, they think there good when they are not, like I said, im not saying this is you, just saying its possible it could be you. But, like I said, if that is not you, things should turn around on global. GL
06-07-2018 , 01:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn
"The top 1% SNG players on global would get crushed in a live environmemt", you cant be serious. Why are you arguing with poker 12, his results are impressive, maybe your just dealing with variance? Maybe try playing on global again? Everyone agrees with you about global having issues, your not wrong about that, but I think your very emotional because your down money and your looking for something to blame because of that, maybe that is not what it is, maybe you are a good player that is just dealing with variance and the only way you can explain that is with the rng being a "sweepstakes model", I think you should give global another try, and things still don't go your way, maybe, just maybe, start looking at your game, I play live almost everyday, and I always see players that think they are better than they really are, not saying this is you, just saying its something i see in A TON of losing players, they think there good when they are not, like I said, im not saying this is you, just saying its possible it could be you. But, like I said, if that is not you, things should turn around on global. GL


Matt: I am not bashing Poker12 . What I am doing is pointing out that while he is a good player on Global and his graph is healthy possibly his results should be way better on a larger healthier site? His short term results on Global again are good.

I played on Global and did not lose money . I did not make what my expected results should be . For that reason and a few others that have been talked about over and over again on this board. I decided to shut it down and not play there. I think you guys are misunderstanding what I am saying.

While P12's results are good the 69k number is not what it should be over 12,500 games. A good percentage of his 69k has come from MTT"S so that's a chunk at a time. The 69k is not liquid cash and I would venture a solid guess that while showing a profit of 69k it is actually about 40% of that because Shark scope misses a ton of tournaments . Even if they did not miss a ton of tournaments his true net profit would still be much smaller from chunking off money in cash games and also lest not forget the 28.5% that Pay Pal will report to the USA . If they chose to collect it that's another story because I have heard conflicting things about the taxes.


Now he says he crushes cash games yet we have no way to prove that without data .

As far as myself . I am not concerned a bit about what anybody here thinks about if I am a good or winning player or not. I know that over the course of 15 years playing online poker I have made money . This is exactly why I am not alone in saying what I say about Global. It doesn't matter to me if its the RNG or the Bot rings or the collusion or the site itself. Something is not correct for me . Now people saying it is me , I will accept that so why would I play there? I wouldn't .


Oh and as far as the top 1% getting crushed . I stand by that 100%
06-07-2018 , 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
If my family depended on the winnings from Global Poker I would noose myself.
Hahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahha. Wow.

Make sure the door hits you on the way out.
06-07-2018 , 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
Matt: I am not bashing Poker12 . What I am doing is pointing out that while he is a good player on Global and his graph is healthy possibly his results should be way better on a larger healthier site? His short term results on Global again are good.

I played on Global and did not lose money . I did not make what my expected results should be . For that reason and a few others that have been talked about over and over again on this board. I decided to shut it down and not play there. I think you guys are misunderstanding what I am saying.

While P12's results are good the 69k number is not what it should be over 12,500 games. A good percentage of his 69k has come from MTT"S so that's a chunk at a time. The 69k is not liquid cash and I would venture a solid guess that while showing a profit of 69k it is actually about 40% of that because Shark scope misses a ton of tournaments . Even if they did not miss a ton of tournaments his true net profit would still be much smaller from chunking off money in cash games and also lest not forget the 28.5% that Pay Pal will report to the USA . If they chose to collect it that's another story because I have heard conflicting things about the taxes.


Now he says he crushes cash games yet we have no way to prove that without data .

As far as myself . I am not concerned a bit about what anybody here thinks about if I am a good or winning player or not. I know that over the course of 15 years playing online poker I have made money . This is exactly why I am not alone in saying what I say about Global. It doesn't matter to me if its the RNG or the Bot rings or the collusion or the site itself. Something is not correct for me . Now people saying it is me , I will accept that so why would I play there? I wouldn't .


Oh and as far as the top 1% getting crushed . I stand by that 100%
"Oh and as far as the top 1% getting crushed. I stand by that 100%", This is just wrong, how the hell do you know if poker 12 would get crushed in a live environment? Try and think rationally, I play live 30 - 50 hours a week, the players are god awful, saying the top 1% SNG players online would get crushed, is just idiotic.
06-07-2018 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
That hand made the site about a buck in rake while busting a couple guys at the table. Your theory is that the guy who won (who was probably just a bad player which shockingly happens at nano Omaha, given his flop play) is a super user, and that this buck in rake is more than the site would normally make in an hour of regular play?

Ever consider that it was someone who was just splashing around with some pocket change and got lucky? He probably lost it all back soon enough. Strange that a hand like this of this game type and this buy in level (the other two players play was standard) is an example of anything in your mind, but I have no doubt you believe it.

Riggies really want to believe in rigs that would be very awkward to create, would make the site no money, and would be very easy to detect. I have this strange belief that sites that would cheat would do the opposite in pretty much all of those areas. Go figure. Sorry your aces lost in Omaha with the 34% equity you had on the flop. Wah.

All the best.


Love this quote because it uses logic. Me personally, this is why I forced myself to move up in stakes despite the fact I wasn't ready. The hand you showed is what $10 buy ins? I spend $15/day on lunch so in the grand scheme of things, it's pennies you're playing with, hence, people call crap all the time, hitting 4 outer's. In fact you should've folded with 2 ahead of you calling. Guy to you left was all in so you're gonna see the hand anyways, lay down your aces, watch it happen, get pissed that fish hit a 4 outer, but be happy you didn't bust your happy meal money.
06-07-2018 , 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn
"Oh and as far as the top 1% getting crushed. I stand by that 100%", This is just wrong, how the hell do you know if poker 12 would get crushed in a live environment? Try and think rationally, I play live 30 - 50 hours a week, the players are god awful, saying the top 1% SNG players online would get crushed, is just idiotic.

Matt: How come none of the top players at Global have ever won there huge sweeps cash 100k or 250k tourney? How come every Sunday it's a different nobody who binks the big MTT's ?

The larger sites you can count on players consistently making it to the top of the larger tourneys yet at Global it's always some unknown with a losing or even graph?


Why is it that we have never heard a single so called pro talk about Global publicly ? Why is it that not a single media outlet has interviewed anybody or written anything positive about Global Poker? If the site was so easy and so full of horrible players whom had no chance to win logic would surely say that the so called internet wizards would be winning at a high rate and getting all mushy over the site and there would be some talk of it in the world .

None of this has happened because not a single online pro would waste there time playing at Global because they would instantly recognize it for what it is.

Which in turn makes the top 1% of players at Global just a bunch of average joe's nobody has heard of or will ever hear from after the site gets punted from its current position . If you truly think that someone showing a graph with 69k in profit after 9 months of play or 235 days of actual play is something great then you seriously need to take a look at what it means to be making serious money at online poker. 69k is peanuts .
06-07-2018 , 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmAtEuR_backwards
I'm rUeTaMa on Global.

Look up MTT stats on sharkscope, or just take my word for it: I'm pretty much the best MTT player on there by the numbers.



The site is definitely rigged to make losing players lose slower, thereby converting more of their deposits to rake before the winning population obtains it and cashes it out.

Some notable MTT rigs that I exploit regularly:

1) If a short stack is blinding down near bubble or FT bubble and folds til its his bb, he will almost always get a "real" hand in his blind. EXPLOIT: if YOU are short fold til your big blind vs going with any 2 utg/utg+1. If a short stack does this don't just raise to iso his "blind hand" with Ax, 22, K5s etc from cutoff/button ...he will always have you dominated. Note im not saying he'll always win, just that he will almost always get a proper allin hand



2) If you are running over the table and get KK, especially in the first 3 hands after or before a break or the first few hands of a final table....AA is ALMOST ALWAYS out against you. You can literally exploit fold KK in this spot --there are several videos of me doing this on the Global Player's Forum Facebook page and getting ridiculed for it, despite the fact in 2 of the 4 spots AA got shown vs some other player who got allin and in one of them the other player said he had AA. EXPLOIT: look for this pattern and be willing to fold KK pre without committing many chips



3) If you are calling on a draw, it almost never comes in but you usually river a 2nd pair that is no good--but feasibly could be--to get you to call one more bet

EXPLOIT: get allin with the draw on flop and it gets there at least as often as it should...don't call down. If you do call down don't call when you river a pair



4) In limped pots when you flop the bottom end of an open ended straight draw in the blinds, the hand which makes the nuts with a gut shot the times your high out hits almost always is out (you have 45 on 67K...9T is out almost always) EXPLOIT: at minimum dont go crazy when you hit. I prefer bet/fold over check/call



5) Sunday is basically a day they hose almost all the winning MTT players in the $110 and $218 to give their losing players a day in the sun. If you look at the chipleaders through the 2nd hour to 4th hour and sharkscope you can confirm this: its always maybe one winning player...2ish breakeven to slight winners, and the rest are guys down 2k+ at $20-30 stakes on the softest MTT site ever. Also people like me are NEVER up there despite crushing every other day of the week on the site. EXPLOIT: If you are a 50% or higher MTT player on the site just skip sunday or only play if you satellite in. They are literally stealing your money and giving it to the fish. If you suck at poker and are down a lot on there in cash or SNGS or MTTs: Play the $110 and $218 and take your share of the rigged global equity redistribution



6) I'm pretty certain the site operates with some sort of ELO like rating system which rates players based on average bbs/hand or similar and re-assigns/re-weights equities based on active players in the hand's ratings. So when you are in a hand vs a player of similar skill....the deck behaves pretty close to real world expectation. If you are vs a player much worse or much better than you though the equities are shifted away from true equity and toward the weaker player...hence a bad player's AA is probably an 86-90% favorite instead of 79-82%, and a strong player's AA is probably more like 74-76% when he's allin vs a fish: EXPLOIT: I actually go to war with other winning regs a lot, aggressively getting allin with them in spots where I should be 60/40 or 70/30 and even taking flips. I Actively AVOID flips with fish, because they run more like 60/40 in the fish's favor. If you are a losing player, get allin as often as possible vs the best players with almost anything pretty: you will print chip stacks times Global has decided to give you a cash....and thus your cash will be bigger than it would have been if you played normally.


This post is proof that poker will never ever die. What a classic. I love the KK near a break the best.
06-07-2018 , 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
Matt: How come none of the top players at Global have ever won there huge sweeps cash 100k or 250k tourney? How come every Sunday it's a different nobody who binks the big MTT's ?

The larger sites you can count on players consistently making it to the top of the larger tourneys yet at Global it's always some unknown with a losing or even graph?


Why is it that we have never heard a single so called pro talk about Global publicly ? Why is it that not a single media outlet has interviewed anybody or written anything positive about Global Poker? If the site was so easy and so full of horrible players whom had no chance to win logic would surely say that the so called internet wizards would be winning at a high rate and getting all mushy over the site and there would be some talk of it in the world .

None of this has happened because not a single online pro would waste there time playing at Global because they would instantly recognize it for what it is.

Which in turn makes the top 1% of players at Global just a bunch of average joe's nobody has heard of or will ever hear from after the site gets punted from its current position . If you truly think that someone showing a graph with 69k in profit after 9 months of play or 235 days of actual play is something great then you seriously need to take a look at what it means to be making serious money at online poker. 69k is peanuts .
Whats serious to someone else may not be so serious to you, I play poker for a living, my objective is to not make f you money from poker, I play and make enough from it, 69 k is not peanuts to alot of people, maybe it is to you, but to alot of people thats enough to live a life from on a yearly bases, not everybody that plays for a liveing is trying to make 100k plus per year, some people are comfortable with less, and there is nothing wrong with that.
06-07-2018 , 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
Matt: How come none of the top players at Global have ever won there huge sweeps cash 100k or 250k tourney? How come every Sunday it's a different nobody who binks the big MTT's ?

The larger sites you can count on players consistently making it to the top of the larger tourneys yet at Global it's always some unknown with a losing or even graph?


Why is it that we have never heard a single so called pro talk about Global publicly ? Why is it that not a single media outlet has interviewed anybody or written anything positive about Global Poker? If the site was so easy and so full of horrible players whom had no chance to win logic would surely say that the so called internet wizards would be winning at a high rate and getting all mushy over the site and there would be some talk of it in the world .

None of this has happened because not a single online pro would waste there time playing at Global because they would instantly recognize it for what it is.

Which in turn makes the top 1% of players at Global just a bunch of average joe's nobody has heard of or will ever hear from after the site gets punted from its current position . If you truly think that someone showing a graph with 69k in profit after 9 months of play or 235 days of actual play is something great then you seriously need to take a look at what it means to be making serious money at online poker. 69k is peanuts .
theres a reason why nobody is talking about global and it has nothing to do with what youre ranting about. also i think you answered your own question of why you havent heard of the ppl winning big mtts on global.
06-07-2018 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn
Whats serious to someone else may not be so serious to you, I play poker for a living, my objective is to not make f you money from poker, I play and make enough from it, 69 k is not peanuts to alot of people, maybe it is to you, but to alot of people thats enough to live a life from on a yearly bases, not everybody that plays for a liveing is trying to make 100k plus per year, some people are comfortable with less, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I agree with you on this . I am not attempting to sway or belittle you or P12 or anybody making money on Global . I have stated many times if individuals are making money "Don't try and fix something that isn't broken" . What I am saying is that in the realm and scope of things the site itself is a running joke in the online poker world and that is simply why nobody has endorsed it or even takes it in a serious way.

There is definitely something wrong with peoples expected win rates . Could it be that there software is something that reg players are not use to ? Sure . I said before I don't know what it is and don't care. Maybe nothing is wrong but again logic and reason says that if not a single endorsement money hungry pro has stepped up to make easy money then I have to go with MY OPINION that there is a good reason why.

Most of the so called pro's would endorse a steamy pile of fresh dog **** if they could get a check for $1,000.00 yet not a peep from any of them .
06-07-2018 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirswish6
theres a reason why nobody is talking about global and it has nothing to do with what youre ranting about. also i think you answered your own question of why you havent heard of the ppl winning big mtts on global.

Ok Swish please tell us why nobody is talking about it and before you do don't give me the robotic answer that it's so great nobody wants it to get reg infested. The place has been operating for almost two years . That theory is played out
06-07-2018 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
I agree with you on this . I am not attempting to sway or belittle you or P12 or anybody making money on Global . I have stated many times if individuals are making money "Don't try and fix something that isn't broken" . What I am saying is that in the realm and scope of things the site itself is a running joke in the online poker world and that is simply why nobody has endorsed it or even takes it in a serious way.

Most of the so called pro's would endorse a steamy pile of fresh dog **** if they could get a check for $1,000.00 yet not a peep from any of them
You do realize this is 2018, and the era of the sponsored pro is long, long dead and buried. You suggesting sites should bring back the Full Tilt model of pros as a sign of a room that is legit?

You claiming something else is a "running joke" is irony, nothing more.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
There is definitely something wrong with peoples expected win rates . Could it be that there software is something that reg players are not use to ? Sure . I said before I don't know what it is and don't care. Maybe nothing is wrong but again logic and reason says that if not a single endorsement money hungry pro has stepped up to make easy money then I have to go with MY OPINION that there is a good reason why.
For someone who does not care, you sure spend a lot of time saying your "OPINION" on the topic, although a rig that lowers every player's win rates would be an amusing one to see exist. Perhaps you can explain how that would work.

Also, no pros have stepped up because nobody is looking to hire them, and why you may not hear them talking about the site is that perhaps they have learned that if they find a good thing, they realize it lasts longer the less they talk about it. For some it is about maximizing money, not saying "OPINIONs" on rooms they quit due to being unable to compete. Your metrics are clunky and very outdated.

All the best.
06-07-2018 , 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Agnoostic
........

Most of the so called pro's would endorse a steamy pile of fresh dog **** if they could get a check for $1,000.00 yet not a peep from any of them .
Agree 100%. I know more than a handful and most would take $1,000 to say Alpo cures cancer.

What pros are with WPN, Bovada, Intertops, etc.....? Much of that has past by the current market place. Few pros have any real deals beyond the ones with 888, PP, or PS. Many of the quality names with integrity are not willing to risk their assets by association with a site that could be scammy. I don't see that as being much of a discussion anymore.

      
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