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Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set

12-14-2015 , 07:09 PM
This would apply in a loose game, such as 1/2NL.

I have KK vs. 5 opponents

Flop: AK6

What would be the odds of one or more of my opponents holding a flush draw?

Notice that Ax Qx and down the line is available to opponents. Thanks!
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-14-2015 , 09:37 PM
Your flopped set is irrelevant to the chance someone has a flush draw here. There are two factors: 1) what is the chance one of five opponents was dealt two diamonds, given that we have seen five cards and two are diamonds. 2) What is the chance he stayed in for the flop.

1. The chance any specific player here was dealt DD is C(11/2) / C(47,2) = 55/1081 = 5.09%. We can approximate the chance at least one among five players has DD by 1-(1-.0509)^5 = about 23%.

2. What is the chance a player in a loose game sees the flop with any suited hand? It would be helpful if we know the preflop betting, and player tendencies, but without any of that we'll just say 50% chance.

23% * 50% = about 11.5% chance one of your opponents flopped a flush draw.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-14-2015 , 11:15 PM
Here is a way to get the exact probability under the assumption of random card distribution. You can break this down by the total number of diamonds dealt to your five opponents, and then tally how many of these ways exhibit one or more flush draws.

Clearly the number of ways for your five opponents to have exactly D diamonds between them is C(36,10-D)*C(11,D) since there are 11 diamonds not accounted for, 36 non-diamonds not accounted for, 10 total cards dealt out to them, where C(x,y) is the combination function.

There are 945 ways of dealing of 10 cards into 5 2-card hands where the cards are ordered so that the first card of each hand is greater than the second card and the five first cards are ordered from high to low.

That is, C(10,2)*C(8,2)*C(6,2)*C(4,2)*C(2,2)/5! = 945.

I cannot remember what the technical term is for the following, but it is straightforward to calculate how many of these deals with D diamonds exhibit a flush in one or more hands for each D.

They are 0, 0, 105, 315, 585, 825, 945, 945, 945, 945, 945 for D=0 to 10.

Combining these two sets of data, we find that, under the assumption of total randomness, the probability of one or more of your opponents having a flush draw is 1,156,379,935,095 / 4,893,273,079,695 = 23.632%.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-14-2015 , 11:17 PM
I approached the problem a bit differently using a simulation program. If one sees the flop, it is reasonable to think their hand has some value. I assumed of the 5 opponents, one plays atc, two play top 50% and two play top 25%. Then the probability at least one has a flush draw is 25.7%. Naturally, the results will vary based on what you think villain ranges are.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-14-2015 , 11:44 PM
By inclusion-exclusion:

5 * C(11,2) / C(47,2) -
C(5,2) * C(11,4) / C(47,4) +
C(5,3) * C(11,6) / C(47,6) -
5 * C(11,8) / C(47,8) +
11 / C(47,10)

= 23.632%

(Note: with PIE, neither partitions nor compositions are necessary for this problem because it doesn't matter which diamonds go to which villain.)

Edit: Just noticed your flashy new color, whosnext! Glad to see
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww
By inclusion-exclusion:

5 * C(11,2) / C(47,2) -
C(5,2) * C(11,4) / C(47,4) +
C(5,3) * C(11,6) / C(47,6) -
5 * C(11,8) / C(47,8) +
11 / C(47,10)

= 23.632%

(Note: with PIE, neither partitions nor compositions are necessary for this problem because it doesn't matter which diamonds go to which villain.)

Edit: Just noticed your flashy new color, whosnext! Glad to see
Nice answer heehaww. One day, perhaps, my brain will flash to PIE methodology for these types of problems, but I am not yet there.

Yes, I am now green!
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 12:50 AM
to be clear I'm speculating here, so I'd greatly appreciate comments why this is wrong/improper.


using this methodology
Quote:
1. The chance any specific player here was dealt DD is C(11/2) / C(47,2) = 55/1081 = 5.09%. We can approximate the chance at least one among five players has DD by 1-(1-.0509)^5 = about 23%
and figuring for this

Quote:
If one sees the flop, it is reasonable to think their hand has some value. I assumed of the 5 opponents, one plays atc, two play top 50% and two play top 25%.

55/1081 =.0509 = ATC will have flopped a FD
35/473 =.074 = a top 50% hand will have flopped a FD
20/227 =.0881 = a top 25% hand will have flopped a FD

1-0509 =.9491
1-.074 =.926
1-.0881 =.9119

1-(.9491*.926^2 *.9119^2)
1-(.67675)

=32.325%

in contrast to this

Quote:
23% * 50% = about 11.5% chance one of your opponents flopped a flush draw.
intuitively, it seemed to me that the chance should get greater as people get more selective about their starting hands

and this

Quote:
Then the probability at least one has a flush draw is 25.7%.
this was greater but surprised me that it wasn't even more, ran a sim myself and arrived at 34.27%

Last edited by ngFTW; 12-15-2015 at 12:58 AM.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 03:05 AM
Thanks guys!
I was surprised by the low percentage answers. I thought it would be much closer to 50% vs. 5 opponents.

Since the pot was straddled to $6, 1 caller & then I raise to $30, get the 5 callers. One of which was the straddler. They are probably holding hands in the top 25-30% or so.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 07:04 AM
A quarter of all random hands are suited (23.5%). That doesn't increase much taking top 50% or top 25% hands, only very slightly.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 04:31 PM
Ducking back in just to point out the double factorial method that is useful in many poker applications.

The number of disjoint ways to form N 2-card hands from 2*N cards is N!!.

Which is most easily calculated as 1*3*5*7*...*(2*N-1). That is, the product of the first N odd numbers.

So the number of disjoint ways to form 5 2-card hands from 10 cards is 5!! = 1*3*5*7*9 = 945.

This is useful in many poker problems.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 05:16 PM
That's 9!! and the formula should be (2n-1)!!

5!! is 5*3
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 05:36 PM
See if you can apply the concept to Omaha (ie generalize the double-factorials): how many ways are there to form N unlabeled (not belonging to specific players) 4-card hands from 4*N cards?
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote
12-15-2015 , 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww
That's 9!! and the formula should be (2n-1)!!

5!! is 5*3
Oh jeez, I cannot even get the fricking formula correct.

Thanks heehaww for the correction.
Probability of flush draw multi-way vs. flopped set Quote

      
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