A two-part PokerNews article on William Kassouf's "speech play" in this year's WSOP Main Event. First part is up; second part goes up tomorrow: https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/w...play-26077.htm

Love to get a discussion going about Kassouf's talking here. I haven't watched the latest two episodes, but I hear there are some interesting awkward fireworks with Kassouf's tablemates getting a bit upset with his talking and excessive, unnecessary tanking.

Here's part 2 of the article, which includes some video examples of the hands analyzed: https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/w...ideo-26079.htm

I can't wait to get through this. It should be fun. I'm not sure if it's because if the editing, but he seems to get quiet as a mouse when he gets a huge lead on the flop. It's been obvious when he's in a heads up pot with someone who doesn't seem to care about about the talk.

Is it fair that they all call the clock on him?
Is his behaviour acceptable?
Is good for tv but is it good for the game?
#theCocoNuts
#9LikeABoss
#180

Hard to say if it was right that they called the clock on him given that only see an edited version of what happened at the table. I mean if a guy is taking 10 min to act on every hand then yea I can see them calling the clock. At the same time you are playing for 8 Milly so I see that someone will need time to act on hands...

Kassouf's issue is that he doesn't know when to stop talking. In the sense that had he just shut up when he was told by the TD not to say another word he wouldn't have gotten a penalty. Even in the last episode the TD is telling him what he feels Kassouf is doing wrong and he just keeps going back and forth with the TD. Look if your being told to "shut up" so to speak or you're going to get a penalty then just shut up. That simple...

I think it is good for TV... But I don't think it is good for the game. You could see how tense the table was and we only say a little piece of all hours they were playing at the table.

In terms of tells. I think that he mixed up his talk well. While listening to him I tried to put myself in the seat of the other player and I couldn't pick up any spots where he gave his hand away. All in all it worked he ran up his stack from 10 bb to over 30 bb if I remember well.

But I think there is a limit. When you have 8 guys pissed at you and they are saying you are holding up the game then compromise and speed up easy decisions... Don't keep doing little things to piss everyone off.

Like when he picked up 33 vs two overs. He didn't have to wait till they counted down to 0 when they called clock. Or taking 20-30 seconds to just look at your hand pre. Or calling out bets with the smallest chips to take up time. I think talking and trying to tilt people at the table is like a marriage you pick your battles.

In Kassouf's case I think they were more pissed that he was just taking forever to make decisions.

Having 8 guys pissed at him was exactly what he was trying to accomplish imo
He was trying to tilt them and seemed to be pretty successful at it

Totally agree...I was referring to when Jack Effel was correcting him. You have to know how to pick your battles...

Chicago, I see your point. But I did like his style.
If I start doing that I would give everything away so that is not a strategy that I could use.
When they all called the clock even the TD said it was to early. Of course he could look at his cards but I never saw him not doing it.
IMO they will need to specify if you can talk to someone that is facing a bet. I think they were wrong when he could not talk to someone that was all in.

Does anyone else have an opinion? Would you like to see more people using that strategy? Or should they ban it?


Maybe people would stop using headphones if they know that no one is allowed to talk to them anyway.

I think he was a victim of his own tactics in the 33 hand. I think he really wanted to call there but may have been thinking "well, if I call here and am dominated then 'they win'".

Yes, as a lawyer he should know when to pick his battles but I see him 'just' wanting to have Jack (or someone) acknowledge that the other players were out of line as well for ganging up on him and name calling. Jack was trying to get him to focus on what he was doing wrong, which I think he clearly knows what hes doing wrong and using it as a tactic, and he wanted Jack to 'also' focus on what the other players were doing to try and circumvent those tactics. This was truly a 'calling wolf' spot played out at the table.

I'm not trying to defend him. I like table talk, but it's hard to know all of history in an edited version and make a clear judgement as well. I think this was a case of chirping chips as well. As his stack dwindled down he was unable to use his stack as an additional factor in his banter. I also think that with them showing hands where he was silent that there were certain players who he just stopped talking to because they just didn't bite into the antics. Player who he thought he could get a read on he pushed harder.

He wanted the other players to snap and instead taking advantage of it he wanted to press even further with Jack.

I look forward to looking at the Poker News articles and further points of view.

To some the 33 hand is a no brainer but he (as I would) took some time to 'see' the spot and even if I know I'm folding I'm gong to try and get some information for 'next time'. Was it excessive? As it played out on TV, for sure, but also as he stated a few times, "Well then I'm thinking about much more than you are during each hand." I can't hold that against him, but there are certainly limits that he must be aware of and as a lawyer I can see him pushing the edges more than others. GL

it's so obvious and it's the same flaw in every speech players game: the guy will never make goading statements or weak statements when he's bluffing/weak because they could trigger an unwanted call response. everything else is white noise and can be ignored (strong statements especially can be used in either strong or weak situations).

and if he's going to give away that amount of free information let him do it.

just never talk to him during a hand and call clock on the guy every time.

there are also rules that cover routine breach of etiquette, disrespect to other players, time-wasting and other anti-social behavior, and I'd fully expect these rules to be more vigorously enforced in future. we don't want a stream of people coming into the game using someone like WK as a role model. if half the players in the WSOP ME adopted a similar strategy to WK then the game would become unplayable and entries would drop markedly. honestly, who would pay for an event that had three WKs on every table?

gamesmanship is a part of sport, but so is etiquette. you can casually mention to your mate that he used to be so good at bunker shots until recently (as he's holding his sand wedge looking forlornly at a fried egg lie), but you can't walk down his line on the green. when WK talks, it's gamesmanship. when he takes forever to act and uses small chips, he's walking on the line. and he may cop a ball marker in the head and a date with the committee.

One reason smarter, talkative players will talk/interact with opponents is not necessarily to get opponents talking, it's to gauge any sort of reaction.

One of the major ways Kassouf's behavior (and similar behaviors) can induce behavioral tells is this:

Players are less likely to show annoyance or express frustration when they're holding weak hands; this is especially true for bluffers.

This doesn't mean much in one hand, in a vacuum, but if you're playing with the same players over the course of a day or two, it can create some easy-to-spot patterns. An example of how this could play out to Kassouf's advantage:

Kassouf's opponent bets the river. Kassouf rambles verbally for a while. If his opponent expresses agitation/anger (examples: staring at Kassouf, verbally interacting with him in an angry way, getting an angry facial expression), it's become more likely that player is betting with a strong hand.

If his opponent instead acts conciliatory/neutral, and if this is an opponent Kassouf knows doesn't like his act, it has become more likely that player is weak.

Obviously this is very general but it can definitely play a role when you're able to play quite a few hands and get a sense of how agitated/frustrated an opponent lets himself be with you during a hand. This is the main way an act like Kassouf can reap rewards, and it's not an obvious way. I've seen many people focus on the fact that nobody was responding verbally to Kassouf's rambling, but it seems many people miss the point that there are reactions and behavior other than verbal stuff that talking a lot (and generally being annoying) can induce.

I haven't seen the Griffin Benger hand where Kassouf busts out but I've heard it involves Benger berating Kassouf as it's Kassouf's turn to act, and Benger has AA and Kassouf has KK. Obviously it's almost impossible to fold in Kassouf's spot, but if I were Kassouf I'd think that Griffin choosing that spot, of all spots, to express his frustration/anger would make it much more likely Benger was strong and relaxed. If Benger had a hand like AK or a pair QQ or lower, or a bluff, I'd predict he would have kept quiet here. Here's the hand history: http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...history-592625 Just one example.

And I think this is a factor of Hellmuth's play that is not often talked about. Hellmuth, I have no doubt, is good at sussing out when someone is more willing than usual to express frustration/agitation when Hellmuth rants at them a bit. (I know Hellmuth doesn't always do this, but I do think this is one reason why he was motivated to act that way in the first place, alongside the other obvious factors of Hellmuth wanting media attention and him being emotionally volatile.)

I completely agree on the Benger hand and I was making this point just based on the hand history before seeing it on the WSOP broadcast.

Someone who has been completely quiet all tournament as Benger had all of a sudden decides to fly off the handle and start insulting an opponent verbally? Seems like a very strong tell trying to goad his opponent into giving him action.

In the actual broadcast, Benger kept completely quiet until the clock was called. Benger almost seemed to think that he had no choice and had to do anything in his power to get Kassouf to call.

Seems like a very amateur response from Benger and am disappointed Kassouf couldn't find a fold, but he already had like 25% of his stack in at that point.

[QUOTE=that_pope;51046911]I completely agree on the Benger hand and I was making this point just based on the hand history before seeing it on the WSOP broadcast.

Someone who has been completely quiet all tournament as Benger had all of a sudden decides to fly off the handle and start insulting an opponent verbally? Seems like a very strong tell trying to goad his opponent into giving him action.

In the actual broadcast, Benger kept completely quiet until the clock was called. Benger almost seemed to think that he had no choice and had to do anything in his power to get Kassouf to call.

This is an interesting interpretation. I thought Benger had just had enough at this point. His outburst seems fairly spontaneous.
Gordon Vayo noted in an interview towards the end of the coverage that Kassoufs 'speech play' may have played a big part in his deep run but it was having little or no effect on day 7 [when most of the controversy erupted].
I think Kassouf's strategy is designed to annoy other players more so than gleam information which would explain why he persisted with it to the bitter end. I don't think it effected other players decision making for the most part.
Overall I think he a gave a very bad account of himself by persisting with his delay tactics despite the protests of every player at the table and demanding a penalty for Benger after he had been knocked out himself. Bear in mind there was short stacks at the table while he was deliberating on non decisions pre in 3bet pots. He also succeeded in dragging other players down to his level and some of their conduct was arguably as reprehensible. For example Cliff Josephy called him a clown on a number of occasions.

Cliff Josephy calling Kassouf a clown was entirely justified, as was Benger's response and the response of most other players at the table and throughout the tournament. There is simply no excuse or explanation for Kassouf's appalling behavior at this year's main event.

I also highly question Jack Effel's interpretation of the rules and TD guidelines. If Kassouf's behavior doesn't amount to taunting, abuse, unnecessary delay or other rule infraction (and I have some serious doubts about this also), then the reaction of so many players should allow Jack to invoke rule #1 that allows a tournament director to do anything within a tournament that is deemed to be in the best interests or fairness of the game.

The fact the Jack Effel actually said to Kassouf that he agreed that he'd been badly treated and would give Benger a penalty is a disgrace, and very much contrary to the prevailing sentiment in the room. I believe that Jack was intimidated and should have taken greater responsibility to address Kassouf's behavior - handing him a copy of rule #1 if need be.

Kassouf routinely harassed, intimidated and abused players throughout the tournament and when he wasn't doing that, he was taking as long as possible to act. His entire 'speech play' strategy is obnoxious and it won't be long before there is a fairly serious altercation between players as a result.

The WSOP have failed in their duty of care towards many affected players at this year's event.

That has absolutely nothing to do with tells. Many other threads are discussing what you want to discuss.

Fair point, apologies

Yelling at those Kassouf clouds.

Just kidding, oldsilver.

How could he find a fold, he went all in first and benger called


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

did Benger actually get a penalty? I haven't seen that answered anywhere. Effel could have been saying anything just to get Kassouf out of there and had no intention of giving Benger a penalty.

That was exactly the way I read it as I watched it. Lol.

I find it entertaining



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let the guy talk, his " speech play " is riddled with tells.