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Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

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Old 02-04-2019, 11:55 PM   #1
DooDooPoker
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Would working with a World Class Mentalist help your Live Poker Reads?

Okay so I know most of us play online (as do I) but I was watching America's Got Talent and they had this damn Mentalist on and he was very perceptive in Micro Expressions. I am wondering if working with a World Class Mentalist would help your live poker "reads." Yes they are real albeit not as important as solid poker.

Also in before

[X] lol live reads
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:15 AM   #2
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Re: Would working with a World Class Mentalist help your Live Poker Reads?

A "mentalist" is a magician who pretends to read minds and divine miracles. Ask James Randi, the emphasis is on "pretends".

A "mental coach" (like Jared Tendler, see his books) could help you "get your mind right" if you have tilt issues or other issues that affect your judgment. But you still have to know enough to not leak money away on a regular basis, and that takes focused, properly directed study. Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. Learn from others so you don't have to learn "the hard way".

A "poker coach" can assist you to focus and properly direct your study. But if you study the hand histories in the forums here, the use of PokerStove and possibly other computer aids to quickly learn your odds under various circumstances, that would help quicker and cheaper, up to a point. If that sounds like too much work, you are not anywhere near ready for a poker coach.

But before you use computational help to estimate your odds, you need to have realistic "reads" on "what kind of player does what with what kinds of hands" under what situations. Estimates of equity depend on estimating realistic hand ranges for your Villains. For this you can also study the hand histories and the varying opinions of the posters in this forum.

There is no easy way to poker success.

When a player has "done their homework" as outlined above, and as may be additionally outlined by subsequent posters here , perhaps then it would be somewhat useful to read "Verbal Poker Tells", "Ultimate Poker Tells", and anything written by Zachary Elwood regarding poker tells. These authors practically warn us that tells won't make you a winning player. If you have done your homework tells may help you incrementally in several ways but won't substitute for learning the game.

IMO.
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:43 AM   #3
answer20
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Re: Would working with a World Class Mentalist help your Live Poker Reads?

I am a big fan of micro-expressions. There was a TV series called 'Lie to Me' that used them as part of the plot for each episode. It's based on the studies of an 'expert' who studied various parts of the world.

I'm also a big fan of JTend and ZElwood as shown above. All of the information you can obtain from these 'outside' sources will help your poker game as well as you everyday life.

My new catch phrase of the week is that 'knowing' the game of poker is different than 'handling' the game of poker. And you need to determine how much study is required for you to be the most successful at meeting your goals. GL
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:11 AM   #4
DooDooPoker
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Re: Would working with a World Class Mentalist help your Live Poker Reads?

Thanks for the responses guys. I had never heard of Zachary Elwood before this forum but after discovering him I decided to purchase his 35 hands at $1-$2 no limit kindle book. I’m only about 8 hands through but it is a really good read so far! I plan on buying his Verbal Tells book soon as well.

Do you guys think world class players put enough emphasis on “handling poker” as you describe. Or are tells generally only to be used against weak opposition? I feel that if someone was world class at discerning micro expressions they could deduce information from even the best live players. Thoughts?
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Old 04-03-2019, 04:28 PM   #5
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Re: Would working with a World Class Mentalist help your Live Poker Reads?

I'm a bit skeptical about micro-expressions in competitive environments. I think situations like studies and interrogations and other non-competitive environments are very different from clearly competitive environments where both/all sides assume deception on the part of another person (and I don't consider interrogation as 'competitive', for a few reasons, which I could go into if anyone's curious).

I think in a competitive environment where deception is assumed and people are aware they're being watched by their "enemies", that people would be very unlikely to leak micro-expressions. In studying poker players for quite a while, I haven't seen anything like this, and actually, I think small expressions of fear/concern/anxiety are more likely from players making big value bets.

I'm actually in process of working with a guy who's experienced in micro-expressions, and we talked about this idea. He didn't have a strong opinion on whether they'd be present or play much of a role in poker or clearly competitive environments, and thought it was possible I was correct. But I am going to be sending him some footage to study (recreational-level players) to see if he can find any examples of interesting/useful micro-expressions.
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Old 04-04-2019, 08:49 AM   #6
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Re: Would working with a World Class Mentalist help your Live Poker Reads?

Your efforts are always appreciated.

As with any tell you need 'data' and the more experienced Players are going to give off less useful data. Not that I want you to be wrong (and me right ) but you know I heavily use physical data a lot at low limit games so this will be interesting to see what a 3rd party comes up with. I wish I had footage of some of the stuff I work from.

Physical and bet sizing (including $0) tells are a huge portion of gaining the edge over a typical 'card playing' low limit table. GL
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